Cod rigs

[duncan]

I feel a bit guilty contributing to a current thread on cod when I haven't fished for one for 4 years....

 

however, there seem to be a couple of key issues that are only getting touched on - when they are fundamental.

 

1. if you are using a circle it will work far far better attached to a loop, often crimped in heavier lines, and will be pretty useless snelled...

2. you can just about get away with a semi circle snelled, but it's not as efficient as it would be connected 'loose'

3. there is a key relationship between the angle of pull and the springyness of the hook - ideally you want all the pull on the point in the right direction, and without the potential for any spring through the bend.

4. using springy hooks means you have to have a very thin and short point to a small barb - ie the hook needs to set to the barb with the sort of force available before the bend springs. hooks like the C&R uptides work this way.

5. snelling will keep a J hook aligned better on a springy hook and deliver a little more to the point with even springy hooks - even better with stronger, narrow bend, designs.

6. add a wide bend to a J hook and snelling is really excellent - often a good combination with larger baits. Now you can have a longer, tapered, point to a more significant barb and expect it to get set and hold!

 

obviously baiting, masked points, etc are all factors.

 

I had most success with smaller baits, fished on the bend of a circle hook attached to a reasonably large loop (not tight) with a crimp - 60lb hard nylon. For larger baits I could get 12 calamari on the bend of a 16/0 circle if necessary - but it was much more effective to fish 1 on a smaller circle just down tide of Paul J's 24 calamari baits

[pirky]

Duncan.......I have to say that I have heard the exact opposite of the snell / no snell on circle hooks ( now I am totally confused).

 

I was told that either / or would be ok for standard "J's" but that Snell for circles give the best hook up rate. With laid back / offset eye pass line straight down.....with straight eye go in from the front !!

 

Ooohhhh dear !!!! HELP !!!

 

Dave

[Wedger]

Interesting take Duncan!

 

Here's a professional view from Paul's fishing Kites from New Zealand.

 

Quote

Paul's Fishing Kites have conducted extensive research on fish hook types, hook sizes, and the effects of tying fishing hooks versus snelling fishing hooks in the New Zealand snapper fishery.

 

It was found that the type of fishing hook knots used has a significant effect on catch rates.

 

Circle hooks with a snell knot were found to have the highest catch rate by a considerable margin and caught more than twice as many fish as either O'Shaugnessy and Octopus patterned hooks of the same size.

 

Circle hooks have to be snelled as shown to get the better catch rate.

 

The method of tying fishing hooks was also investigated and a difference in catch rate between tying a circle hook versus snelling a circle hook was determined to be around 20% in favor of the snell knot.

 

 

I'll post a link to his offering.

 

 

[Wedger]

Interesting...........

 

Paul's research

 

[Wedger]

Come on then Trev...............30lber this weekend that a prove it works

 

 

 

 

 

Oooooooh and it will have a bare hook in its mouth 

 

 

Next weekend Nige as I had to work this one.

 

Despite the really nice conditions this week, the tide was pants and the fishing (codding) evidently, very slow.

 

You can be assured of a serious try next week if I get the chance. 'Otter' will look like a porcupine with a (fat) science officer on deck

 

I'll be fishing 8 rods with 2/3 crew.

 

4 methods

2 different, but tried and tested baits.

 

 

who's up for a bit of science

 

 

 

Duncan.

 

I'd be grateful if you would try the loop tied circle as I haven't enough rod/ space for that one. Please report back if you have a go. All data is useful.

 

 

Bring it on guys..............

 

 

[niggle]

Trev,don't take Al.... :lol:as with the forecast and water temp,you'll going to need very deep water because they've probably moved out to the warmer water or chasing sprats?

 

Good luck mate good thread we might end up with...The Wedger Rig?

 

Nige

[duncan]

Interesting take Duncan!

 

Here's a professional view from Paul's fishing Kites from New Zealand.

 

Quote

Paul's Fishing Kites have conducted extensive research on fish hook types, hook sizes, and the effects of tying fishing hooks versus snelling fishing hooks in the New Zealand snapper fishery.

 

It was found that the type of fishing hook knots used has a significant effect on catch rates.

 

Circle hooks with a snell knot were found to have the highest catch rate by a considerable margin and caught more than twice as many fish as either O'Shaugnessy and Octopus patterned hooks of the same size.

 

Circle hooks have to be snelled as shown to get the better catch rate.

 

The method of tying fishing hooks was also investigated and a difference in catch rate between tying a circle hook versus snelling a circle hook was determined to be around 20% in favor of the snell knot.

 

 

I'll post a link to his offering.

fascinating subject!

 

you might find this research paper interesting, as it goes into more detail on the specific hooks and implications.

 

pdf on longlines

 

it deals with the hooking of sea turtles but bear with it!

 

interestingly you will see how fixed rings to the eye of the circle is considered 'optimum' whilst in the swordfish fishery research there was no significance between J and circle hooks!

 

I will admit that I hadn't viewed the 'snelling' images before posting - capital punishment is due........ to me snelling was how spade ends are attached! Running the line through to the front of the eye will improve the performance of a circle, over a circle tied with a uni/grinner or snelled without going through the eye to the front, or snelling and going out through the back of the eye! Basically you are increasing the circle effect.

 

The weakness of this research (longlining- self hooking only) is that it takes into account baiting and fish species etc but not the practical aspects of angling. Look at the relative performance of the 4/0 and 5/0 in the Probability of Catch section of the full report (the one you linked) and reference the 5/0 J - there is almost twice the difference between the 4/0 and 5/0 circle then between the 5/0 circle and 5/0 J - this is a very selective and sensitive fishery!

 

However, all that said, I will still fish full circles on loops - but definitely accept that snelling such that the snood exits the eye through the front is as good (if not better!).

 

Thanks again.

[codpiece]

Duncan, Me,Not too worried, I cant remember the last Sea Turtle I caught out of Xch. Derek

[djredrupp]

First snell the bottom hook.

 

1. Using a cut length of leader, pass enough tag through the eye from the front and lay down the shank on the back.

 

2. with the bend toward the palm of your hand pinch the shank and tag to hold them together.

 

3. Take the leader length and turn it tightly down the length of the shank about 6-7 times. (I always turn away from the cut joint of the eye).

 

4. Pass the leader through the eye from the back, taking care not to let kinks develop and no slack in the turns around the shank.

 

5. Pull the leader hard against the hook to 'set' the snell.

 

NB you can judge the turns and pinch the shank from the beginning where you will finish the turns. Ideally use a pattern of hook and match to a leader that will only just pass twice through the eye.

 

Snelling the send hook is exactly the same procedure........... but

 

This time you lay the leader along the back of the shank of the second hook as before, but ensuring that the distance between hook bends is exactly as desired and the hook bend is facing the opposite way on the leader to the first.

 

Snell and tighten as before with the leader exiting the eye to the front.

 

Trim bottom tag and tie to your swivel.

 

2-3 mins tops.

 

 

Do you not find that with heavier lines (i am trying with 60lb now) that the 'springiness' of the line opens up the snell?

 

looking on youtube it seems everyone does it a different way....

 

One that i seem to have just invented by doing it wrong, works by effectively tying a uni knot, around the shank of the hook, with about 6 turns - dont know the strength of it though...

 

 

Dan

[Wedger]

Try to match the line thickness to the eye of the hook. For best results, ideally the eye should only allow the line through twice. If it will go three times you could put an extra turn through the eye at the beginning. The line I use is quite supple - Greys greylon copolymer 80lb shock leader. Spot on for Sakuma 545 manta extra in 8/0

[Wedger]

I don't have trouble with the Greylon and Sakuma hooks but there is a slight tendancy to slacken on the big eyes of the Grauvell Teklons which I use on top. A quick solution if making these at home would be to use the three passes through the eye, but then hang the trace up by the hook with a weight on the swivel end an put a dab of stormsure on the snell.

[Wedger]

Copied from another thread, (Santa's Little Helper) so please forgive any inconsistancy...

 

Dave said

 

QUOTE

Was this part of the research ref cod rigs Trev.... If so what was the rig and bait ...

 

Give it up Wedger !!!

 

 

 

 

So here is the answer to my Q. posed re fishing experiment to Rup

 

 

Message from Rup

 

 

QUOTE

Trev,always up for fishing.For what its worth ive had 17 fish so far,only 3 or 4 losses and all have been on a sliding pennel using an 8/0 razor claw big bend and a 10/0 o shaughnessy.The night before fishing i sharpen the hooks on 10 traces made out of 80lb mono.I sharpen them on a bench grinder until they are razor sharp.I bait up with 1 ilex and 2 calamari and whip them on with elastic,i then launch the baits downtide or uptide.Bites on the uptider are huge dropbacks bites on the downtider are usually tiny trembles as the cod swims uptide with the bait usually down its throat.I use soft rods,20lb braid and light leads and play my fish very softly.THe sessions fished have mostly been charter trips and the only person to outfish me on cod during those trips has been son Arran yesterday.I dont say that to be big headed but to illustrate that my method works for me.

 

 

 

Rest of message reserved but this bit answers the question.

 

I have variants on the same theme used for Ex. 26/11/10 posted trip Codding on Otter.

 

......and if you were on the club Shogun trip you may have seen me baiting and fishing.....

 

Further variants to be tested.

 

I haven't seen a firm ref to a cod rig from anyone else on the thread yet - any offerings?

 

[pirky]

SORRY seem to have put this on wrong thread......so here it is again !!

 

With my limited experience and frail nature I was not inclined to offer my version of the "cod rig" for fear of ridicule .....

 

However .....with Trev's cry for input .... and realising I have only caught one this year BUT not dropped any !! I thought you might like to know

 

Pennel rig for cod.......Djhh style is............

 

70 lb clear mono.....length depending on conditions ( swell and tide) 15" to 30" To keep the bait Nailed to the bottom.

 

On the bottom.........6/0 O'shaunessy eye tied with a 4 turn tucked clinch knot and 1/4" tag left

 

Penneled hook 5/0 or 6/0 wide gape has been loose but with line through from the front and a couple of turns of the line to "fix" at time of baiting ( can be " fixed " in any orientation to suit my bait.)

 

I slide a muppet down the line ( I use a bait needle to thread this so I have some control where it starts on the trace at least )That's one muppet on the rig and one muppet holding the rod (got that one in b4 any one else !!)

 

Bait is min 2 and up to 4 small 8" squid

 

Same as last year and had 4 .... dropped none

 

Dave

 

 

PS.....I have tied a couple of pennel rigs with circle hooks using the snell knot or similar !! but have knot tried them out yet

Edited December 15, 2010 by pirky

[ChrisE]

Well here's another variant.

 

I use a simple rig, 6/0 Owner pennel hook, kept in place by a few turns around the 80lb leader, an 8/0 Big Mouth at the end tied on with a blood knot. Use either half a cuttle or a couple of squids as bait making sure that both hooks are at right angles to the bait. I sometimes use booby beads above the 6/0 but can't say for sure whether they make any difference.

 

Where I seem to differ with most here is that I use a long trace about 4-5' plus up to another 10' or more, using a snap-lok boom. My reasoning for the long trace is that cod are supposed to be active hunters and I've had a few cod in past years when 'dangling' baits at slack water with the leads 6' off the bottom and bait waving about.

 

Must be doing something right, have had 8 this year with none dropped (that's just screwed up the rest of the season...)

[Wedger]

Many thanks Chris.

 

Just wondering how you ensure your blood knot stays put in such a large diameter line and large hook eye? I know some use a locking knot and or two turns round the hook eye.

 

I have found a well formed, three turn 'thumb knot' to be the best and quickest for the larger, heavier lines. Used by many blue water profs. Still wouldn't beat the snell for retained strength but allows movement if that is what is needed.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Wedger

[duncan]

Duncan, Me,Not too worried, I cant remember the last Sea Turtle I caught out of Xch. Derek

lol - if SHT's bots spot that post they will close the bay to boating completely until they find a turtle!

[ChrisE]

Ah we have a trick for tying bloodknots on Hilda Maud. An 8/0 just fits round the grab rails. So we tie knot, lick and spit on it and give mega heave against guard rail. I just push the slack towards the eye and it tightens up a treat!