Engine Choice

[Paul D]

Decided that a 40HP engine is wanted for Neo. My existing Honda 30 has no tilt and trim and is not powerful enough to push Neo beyond 14 knots when two up. Having discussed with other Orkney 520 owners, it is evident that they fly with a 40HP engine.

 

It was either get a bigger boat or new engine. Given I can just about singlehandedly launch/retrieve Neo, I am loath to get a bigger boat which will be harder to launch / more expensive to run etc.

If I can get 20 knots + out of Neo then my fishing range will be transformed as well.

 

Now the difficult decision. Shall I stick with Honda or get a Yamaha or Suzuki or maybe a new E-Tec engine.

 

The Evinrude E-Tec claim to be lighter than the corresponding 4 stroke, but not for the 40HP model from what I can tell - and after all it is a 2 stroke still. But there again less moving parts - longer service interval ... decisions, decisions.

 

The Yamaha 4 stoke seems pretty popular. I went down to BHG marine in Lymington and they were very helpful and I was also pleased to hear that they had sold a fair few 520s with 40HP Yamahas attached. Apparently Orkney covered the warranty as well - up to 6 months ago when they had a change of heart ( not because of warranty claims but due to possible liability ).

 

Currently it is a toss up between Honda or Yamaha. I know the Tohatsu engines are much cheaper but surely you get what you pay for ? and I like the idea of having a big dealership nearby ( a good selling point for the Yamaha )

[Newboy]

The Etec 40 is heavy compares to a 40 4 stroke is because it's a de-tuned Etec 50 (or was it a 60?). The Strong selling point is 300 hours no service and 4 stroke beating proformance and economy, not to mention the ability to limp home on low rev with NO oil . Dealership wise, Northney Marine (Hayling Island) is a dealer. Just think, tow it to work, leave it with them for services and tow it back home aafter work....

 

Tohatsu is a viability but performance not as strong as the Etec (but only just), it's really a last year Di technology wise (they were bringing out a 2nd gen improved TLDi to pit against the Etec in the State, but not sure if they are here yet), but it's the cheapest by far and there's a dealer -Extreme Marine- in Southampton (his yard is off the A354 to Salisbury) and Tohatsu UK is in Lymington. Servicing is cheap(er), but not as cheap as the Etec, and economy is pretty much the same I believe.

 

Honda is good engine as is the Yamaha, but don't discount the Suzuki, just listen to James' and tell me that isn't quiet!!! Or indeed a Johnson 40 which is in fact a rebadged Suzi.

 

Take a look at HERE

 

It covers all the engines you have/will consider, it covered 4 strokes vs Di and Etec vs TLDi vs Honda vs ...... you get the picture.

 

PS link is down at the mo, but should be up soon.

 

And to answer your 'You get what you pay for...', Tohatsu have been making outboards for decades, since the 50's. It is the natural choice of many commercial boaters in the far east. Most importantly, there is only one major outboard manufacturer who has never issued a major safty recall of any of their product, and I can tell you it ain't, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Johnson, Evinrude or Mercury.

[Bob F]

If you are down to a choice between Honda and Yamaha, my advice would be to go with the one that has the best local service shop.

 

Do they have a good reputation?

 

What has your personal experience been with them, or with someone you know well.

 

What do they charge for the service and parts? How many services do you need during the warranty period? To keep the warranty you have to have the engine serviced by a recognised shop. There can be big differences in these cost, so check them out thoroughly.

 

BF

[TomBettle]

I have been sucked in through work as the engines come across with the boats, but I absolutely love Suzuki.

 

On "Nautibusiness" I have a 140Hp and it whispers at tick over and you can still have a fairly normal conversation flat out.

Very economical, sensible to service and they seem very reliable.

 

I have sold dozens and dozens bolted to the back of our boats and I haven't hear of one with a problem yet, whereas I have seen "dodgy" engines from nearly all of the other manfacturers.

 

If I was out buying again I would 100% get another Suzuki.

 

Tom

[blueboatdriver]

Paul, I'm not trying to put you off a new engine but my 520 cruises at 16knts (that's at 4000revs; lets not get into the meaning of cruising again shall we ). Full revs gets us up to 20-21knts with two on board and all the gear. I have a Yamaha 30 4stroke. Are you sure it's not the way you are set up or maybe you've got water trapped between the double skin adding to the weight.

 

Simon.

[Paul D]

Simon,

 

My Honda 30 is 8 years old and getting long in the tooth. It has never run particularily fast and has been getting slower each year. It does not have power tilt / trim and I keep thinking the number of hours I use the boat ( 60 hrs engine use in last 9 months ) , I might as well have something which will last me another 8 years +.

 

Also, I could do with an engine with power tilt and trim and what puts me off Honda is the cost of my last service ( had carbs cleaned out as idling lumpy - and still is .... ) which was a "mere"

[Newboy]

I admit I based my 'recommendation' on research I did on my TLDi 90. No one outboard is economical across the whole rev range.

 

I know for the 90 hp outboards, my TLDi is the most econmical at trolling, half of what Mercury F90 uses, slightly better at wot, but losst by about 10% at around 4000 rpm. If I am correct, the Honda is the most economical on average, better than any other makes. Even with this considerations, the differences are reasonably small, can anyone say all the 4 strokes are as economical as each others? Obviously one is gonna be better than the others.

 

The fun of choosing an outboard is to weigh up ALL pros and cons for ALL the outboards and then make a decision. If it is running cost alone, Etec wins hands tied behind its back, no service for 300 hours or 3 years, that alone will save you hundreds of pounds. When I considered an Etec, the guys at Powertech Marine @ Hayling were really helpful with anything I wanted to know. In the end I chose the TLDi because it was a fair bit cheaper than an etec, plus Extreme Marine gave me a discount for fitting and pdi.

[Member Removed]

Hi Paul, 300 hrs running without lifting the hood? I just can"t see it myself. I run a Yamaha 100 and run up about 120hs a year. I have it serviced at 100hr intervals and given the once over at 50hrs. Its suprising how many little things crop up at the 50hr inspection. Can you trust the e-tec claim and hope for the best? BECKS

[duncan]

servicing and outboards is an interesting topic in itself!

 

inherently a 4 stroke is more complex and has more adjustable bits than a 2 stroke but then again the only thing that could need adjusting on an old 2 stroke was the carb linkages.........

 

I used to lift the hood on my 2 previous engines - 90 Merc and 175 Merc - and spray the powerhead/linkages all over once a year; hard to call that servicing but it's all that happened up top in 6 years between the engines. Both craft had seperate inline fuel filters (after I fitted them) and the only othe maintainence was gear oil and prop splines which were done religiously at 50 hours with the best available.

 

300 hours doesn't seem too bigger a claim at all.

 

compare it to modern cars - both my last 2 cars ran almost exactly 17,000 miles to their first service which was basically an oil change and inspection!

[Newboy]

I take the Yam is a 4 stroke?!

 

Whether the 300 hours/3 years no servicing (except impellors etc) claims holds water is down to Johnnyrude, they gave the guarantee and the first batch of Etec are just coming to the end of 3 years now. So I guess we will have to keep our eyes peeled for any warranty claims.

 

No other manufacturers of Di make any similar claims, Tohatsu still need yearly service, but I was given estimates to be around

[Afishionado]

I just have to add my six pennyworth (Sam ask your dad about sixpence's).

 

Modern O/B have solid state ignition it either works or it don't..... Need to service? zero

 

Two strokes, no valves & apart from cyl wear on very old or high use engines no servicing needed apart from plugs and the owner can do this.

 

Mechanical control links lubricated by owner. Need to service? zero.

 

G/Box oil, change annualy by owner need to service? nil

 

The best advice given by many many automotive engineers is

 

"If it works do not fix it!"

 

After many years in the motor trade and a bit over 50 years of boat owning I feel quite comfortable in my attitude. Touch wood, I have never had a problem with an outboard that needed a dealer to look at.

 

But I do see (as with motor cars) that some owners of engines are always worried that there may be something 'not quite right' about theirs and it is these guys that always seem to get troubles and big bills. To my mind there must be a causal link but I have no idea what that would be.

 

The more sophisticated and or complicated an engine is, the higher the chances are of potential problems, that must be a given.

 

The two engine manufacturers that seem to have a reputation for making 'bullet proof' O/B's are Tohatsu (Nissan) and Susuki. Both these guys primarily design for the far east third world market where service depot are far and few between. This is probably why they are successful in that area over the more sophisticated engines that require expensive workshops and equipment to maintain.

 

If one wants reliability and low cost of service the choice would be Tohatsu or Susuki two strokes. If one wants an engine at the leading edge of technology then higher OVERALL running cost may have to be taken into account. eg

[duncan]

OMG I find myself in complete agreement with Mike's post!

 

 

 

Kam - re impellors I absolutley agree, same with a good rinsing through of the water ways etc even keeping the whole unit clean and where possible dry and aired. I just don't naturally relate these things to servicing and bills.

[Sam]

this is all going over my head

 

sam

[Afishionado]

Duncan says.......OMG I find myself in complete agreement with Mike's post!

 

 

Oow er Mrs! That's just as likely as a vigin birth (or possibly berth), three kings and a partrige in a pear tree.

 

Mad Mike

[Adam F]

Interesting thread chaps - lots of these at this time of year!!

 

Paul: I dont think you will go wrong with any outboard to put it simply. I went with a Mariner when I changed as I was in a rush, knew loads of people with them and got a good deal - BUT it is louder than the Susuki and larger than the Etec, but is has good fuel economy and starts at thr touch of the key everytime. If I did it again I would go for the Susuki having used James' ....Warrior also claim that they are the only 60hp (4 stke) that they fit to a 165 that will plane with 4 up.

 

If I was in your shoes then quite simply I would go for the best deal I could fine with either Suzuki, Yamahar or Evinrude...etc, etc - the technology is so goo nowadays you will be chuffed with whatever you choose.

 

Adam

[Paul D]

Thanks for the advice - I am off to get some quotes from Suzuki as well now. So much to choose from.

 

I have to point out that I am not imagining my Honda failing to idle by the way - was fine and just started doing this during the November comp.

Took it to SAL marine and told them service needed and idling was impossible - result was "throw away fuel- it is off",

[Newboy]

' ....Warrior also claim that they are the only 60hp (4 stke) that they fit to a 165 that will plane with 4 up.

 

I think it has something to do with the Suzi 60 being the largest displacement 60hp out of all the manufacturers, it displaces around the 2 litres mark.

 

A fine example of why larger cc doesn't mean worse consumption a cracking engine.

[great white]

Hard to disagree with what any of the other say

 

but if another very similar boat is out performing Neo with an engine of the same size it may be advisable to check the hull has not taken on water and has just got excesivly heavy. that or talk to a service agent about Dyno testing the engineto see what HP its giving you.

 

 

I bet its simpler to change the engine for a newer bigger unit, than ether of these ideas.

but its costly

 

I would expect the fuel consumption of a bigger engine at 4000 RPM to beat the existing engine at close to Max RPM quite easily. and still move the boat faster

 

So IMHO its just the purchase costs to consider really

You have a PM on that part

 

Is it worth it just to go quicker?

 

Says I with the new faster boat being built

 

Happy hunting

Charlie

[Manic Moore]

When you look at the modern engines, most are now much of a muchness in economy and purchase price (comparing DI with 4s). After that its maintenance and fuel. Regular maintenance is cheaper on a 2 stroke and if and when something serious went wrong there is no doubt that the 2s would be cheaper. With dirct injection even all the carb weaknesses are gone.

Economy on the DIs is comparable if not slightly better so I guess its about tick over noise as when moving most of the noice is behind in the wind.

You have to say that those etecs do look cool

 

 

Choices choices

[Bob F]

I have a Suzuki 70Hp Four Stroke and would definitely recomend them.

 

Very powerful, fuel comsumption seems to be the same as any other models, always starts first time, and it's whisper quiet.

 

I was amused by Coddy's comment when I came along side him on Sunday. After a qucik chat Dave noticed the tell-tale shooting out of the engine and said 'Bloody 'ell, I didn't realize your engine was on!!'

 

However, I appear to have been one of the rare unlucky ones, because the engine did develop an oil leak during the warranty and had to have an oil seal replaced. The Suzuki dealer had trouble replacing the seal because they had never replaced one before. They called Suzuki UK and they said this was the first time this seal had ever needed replacing in the UK. In fact, the Suzuki dealer mentioned that they have a bit of a challenge with the Suzuki outboards - they never go wrong so it is difficult for their engineers to build up experience on anything other than standard servicing. Suzuki UK have now opened a center of excellence in Milton Keynes to train their dealers and to provide a UK expert knowledge base for ANY problems that arise with their engines (I bet they are first rate at playing computer games then ).

 

BF

 

 

[Paul D]

I have to say I am getting more tempted by the Evinrude E-Tec and the 3 year /300 hours no servicing.

Searched the internet for reports of problems and they appear to be very reliable - found one report of a disintegrated gearbox but hitting a rock witha s/s prop didn't help !

 

I have had a quote for a Yamaha 4Stroke but carb engine, similarily for the Honda.

 

The Evinrude are next generation 2 stroke ( similar to Martin's Optimax ) and appear to get very good reviews.

 

Tempting ... ( and would be pleasing for Mike as I am heading down the path he advises ).

 

Also the quote is around exactly the same price as the Yamaha.

 

Even better - I got the quote from the dealers down the road from work at Northney Marina. However, stumbled across an Evinrude dealer somewhat nearer to home ( as in I could walk there ! ) - didn't even know these people existed.

[Afishionado]

Paul have a look at ......

 

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/EXE376/

 

and

 

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/EXE378/

 

Mad Mike

[Newboy]

Paul, Etec is actually the 2nd attempt by Evinrude trying to make a Di engine, their (although I must say it wasn't owned ny Bomberdier then) first was a ficht and it worked excellently when it worked! If they failed they failed miserably, you either get a good engine and you get a lemon. Unfortunately there were more lemons than apples.... .

 

Do check it out on another boat as the 40hp has only 2 cylinders and there are reports of a few owners complaining they vibrate more than the larger ones on idle.

[Paul D]

Kam,

 

Thanks for the info re: Ficht engines etc. I am aware of all this as have been doing some extensive homework ( the wonders of the internet !).

 

The Ficht engines had problems with detonation ( amongst other things ). Apparently the Optimax had teething problems as well. But this is history and all I can find is good reviews and satisfied owners.

 

I was wondering about the vibration aspects ( 2 cylinders compared to 3 ) but havent managed to find any reports on this. ( Southcoast Outboards tell me they are no rougher than a 3 cylinder 4 Stroke - but they would be a little biased I guess ).

Still 2 cylinders means I save on a spark plug

 

Mark Bessant is going down the E-Tec route as well, so would be interesting to see what his performs like.

 

 

 

Mike,

 

Seen those links and sent off for a quote as well. Their website quotes the 40HP E-Tec as

[Newboy]

As I said it was only a minority of owners who complained about vibrations, maybe they were used to 4 strokes or maybe simply they expected too much.

 

The early Optimax were known as Optipop because they go wrong so often, but as you said that was the earlier one and the later one have all been fine. Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't think Optimax do a 40hp.

 

On Dave's website there's a report from an Etec owner and he loves it (I think).

 

Just remember another Etec's pro. All Di engines need electricity to wotk the cpu in order for it to fire. So if you have a very flat battery, your chance of hand starting the engine is pretty close to zero..... except in the case of an Etec. It source the power from the flywheel so spinning of the flywheel itself is enough to provive power for the cpu.