To windlass or not to windlass

[Crossy]

Hi Folks,

 

I have just bought a new boat which has a Lewmar windlass bolted to the pointy end and has about 120' of 8mm chain. We went out at the weekend to have a first trip out and sort of "get to know her" as it were and the main thing we discovered is that the windlass is really, really, REALLY slow. Accurate anchoring is out of the window with this thing. I know you can put in in freefall or out of gear or something but I have a feeling that that could damage the windlass in the end.

 

In my old boat i used the Alderney method which works fine so I was wondering what you chaps with windlasses installed do? I like the idea of the windlass if I'm out with the boss and have anchored up in a bay somewhere but not if we are trying to anchor up on a wreck with a couple of fishing mates.

 

I was wondering whether it would be worth having a large amount of rope and some chain stored away with the spare anchor on for use when fishing and just use the windlass for those summer days when I'm out with my wife?

 

Just curious,

Andrew

[Mike Fox]

That sounds a chunky outfit Andrew.

 

I have 40m of 8mm chain with a 35lb CQR, so share your concerns. Mind, my boat is over 6 tonnes.

 

I resolve it by having a separate fishing anchor (a small Bruce clone) to chain and 110m of 12mm nylon, using the Alderney Ring system. I keep this in a plastic basket, and deploy it from the bow for fishing in up to 100' of water.

 

There are drawbacks:

- getting the fishing anchor rigged,

- keeping the main anchor available for emergencies,

- the fishing anchor is seriously undersized (to aid handling) and breaks out easily

 

However, this might be an option to consider?

 

Mike

[Graham Nash]

when being taught about the alderney system by our chairman he showed me exactly what you describe Andrew.

 

He informed me that he uses the windlass when anchoring in a bay with the champers and prawn sandwiches but uses the rope and alderney for anything else

[duncan]

firstly I agree with the chairman's approach....

 

when anchoring in relatively deep water (anything over tide range + 3m!) there are quite a few downsides to using the windlass - regardless of the set up.

 

most small boat windlasses will be relatively underpowered, wiring will err on the thinner side (to keep the weight down as well as cost) and the net result is that the windlass will run 'slow', and that's before you end up further loading it with the 'weight of the boat' in the tide (we would constantly nudge the boat forward to balance the loading - not too much or the rode wont bite in the gypsy).

 

further downsides are that you would generally have to wait until the tide turns before recovering from uptide a wreck - or you will loose the lot....

 

given that you should always carry a full spare set up onboard - makes a lot of sense to carry it in a bucket with an alderney set up. Obviously those craft with walkround decks and access, together with good cleats etc, have an advantage when it comes to rigging/using.

 

further you will catch more fish - simply because you will move, or re-anchor, when you need to; rather than putting off 'the pain'

[TomBettle]

Andrew

 

Rest assured your windlass is well wired up and not slow because of that. It is just slow.

Lewmar now manufacture the Profish series which allows the windlass to be lowered in freefall which is a huge boon and I perhaps would have stuck with one if it was available when I ditched the windlass on Quest II (because it was so slow).

That is worth considering.

 

That said, the 705 rope locker is very badly thought out and the moulding for the windlass is halfway down the locker meaning most of the space is wasted, especially as the windlass needs to allow the chain to fall vertically.

 

Next, 120' of chain is madness on your boat! Have you considered what you will do if you get snagged?

At the very least, ditch the first 100' of chain, sell it, anything, but get rid of it. Then splice to that a healthy length of warp (if you are determined to keep the windlass you will be seriously limited on quantity).

 

The weight of the chain will have quite an effect on ride and handling, not to mention performance and economy.

 

Personally, you have a great boat... Get rid of the windlass (

[Crossy]

Hi Folks,

 

Thanks for all your input, most interesting.

 

Tom, I know what you are saying and I can see myself going down that "rode" before long.

As you know, I am going to get her coded and as part of that you need to have a spare "Kedge" (not really sure what this is, is it a danforth?) anchor with rope and chain. As a result I was thinking about keeping the main anchor in a bucket with 150m of rope and 30-40' of chain and then keeping the spare (maybe a 6kg danforth) on the windlass with a smaller amount of rope and chain. I'm just not sure whether I am going to be able to rig the main anchor up with the spare one in the way on the windlass.

 

Yes, 120ft of chain did seem alot to me but I assumed that this is how the gin palaces did things. It sort of ruined our days fishing really as we got to that wreck you [Tom] mentioned before, dropped the anchor and then realised that there was only about 3' of rope attached to the chain and the chain didn't even get to the bottom! I felt a bit of a wally then as my mates were busy getting there conger rigs ready for the first drop, oops........

 

Thanks again for the input fellas.

 

Andrew

[Crossy]

Incidentally, is 12mm OK or does it need to be 14mm (7m boat)?

Got a decent offer on a 220m coil of 12mm 3 strand nylon for a smidge over

[TomBettle]

It sort of ruined our days fishing really as we got to that wreck you [Tom] mentioned before, dropped the anchor and then realised that there was only about 3' of rope attached to the chain and the chain didn't even get to the bottom! I felt a bit of a wally then as my mates were busy getting there conger rigs ready for the first drop, oops........

 

Thanks again for the input fellas.

 

Andrew

PMSL!!!

 

Oh dear, I can see that now.

 

The Kedge by the way is actually a little anchor that is often used in the med where there is little or no current and it is usually used from the stern in conjunction with the main anchor to stop the boat blowing around in the wind, hold the boat just off the beach etc etc.

 

12mm will be plenty strong enough for your boat, but may not work with the windlass (if you keep it). In addition, I personally find 14mm a little more comfy to handle.

That is the only 2 reasons for 14mm.

 

Incindentaly, the buyers of my boat are not using the boat primarily for fishing.

They may well be interested in going for an all chain solution for the windlass they plan to fit.

Quest II has +/- 330m of 14mm warp (110 of multiplait, and 220 of braid - courtesy of Martin's source) plus about 15m of 8mm calibrated chain.

 

If your chain is calibrated, they may be interested in a straight swap if you wanted?

Alderney ring and buff, the lot?

Edited February 14, 2012 by TomBettle

[great white]

Hi Andrew

 

I am in the same position as Tony

 

I have quite a powerful windlass rigged to a rope and chain arrangement, the chain is 10 mtrs long and the rope 100m,

It is a good setup that can be operated from three positions, but the rope needs to be helped back into the locker so we do not use it on most trips.

Lowering is simple, we de clutch the gypsy[winch handle on the top] and let the anchor drop by gravity.

 

I must admit that I am considering lengthening the chain so it could be used more, but do not really want to add the weight.

 

In my deck locker I carry a coil 220m of 12mm warp, which I have attached to 12m of 8mm chain and a 15kg Bruce copy.

This is the rig we usually use when fishing, as we want the boat to stay put.

 

It is lifted on the alderney ring and large buoy, but still needs effort to recover with all that chain.

 

So basically we carry both, but use the alderney ring method at least 90% of the time.

However I would not get rid of the windlass for the summer shallow water and social gatherings.

 

Charlie

 

 

[duncan]

care is required on the drop if releasing the clutch - there is a splitter around the gypsy and whilst it shouldn't catch the chain (it can) it is very good at catching anchor plait if any slack occurs! This will of course only bed the thing, but then it catches more easily etc etc

 

not the end o the world to replace/straighten and rebuild but be aware.

 

Tom - love your confidence; haven't met a small plannig boat windlass installation that doesn't exhibit significant voltage drop and heated cables when in use. Then again there's always the exception that proves a rule I didn't mean this comment as a critism - all bow installations are going to be a compromise on small planning craft and there's nothing wrong with that.

[ospreyman]

i know i dont have the knowledge of others on here but when i got the boat i stuck 220 m rope plus chain on the winch up front delighted to have a winch to do the work. Not. The old anchor ect came off the front with maybe 100m of rope and chain went to the side and has been happily alderney ringed since. this weekend the 220 m is coming out of the locker from where it has remained for years; that will now be alderney ringed from the side and the original set is going back in the locker. winch pah!

note: some strong bow fittings and additional well sited big side cleats dont half help

[Crossy]

PMSL!!!

 

Oh dear, I can see that now.

Yes, I think they are laughing about it now, but only just

 

I think I will take 30' or so off the existing chain and add this to 220m of 12mm and that will do for the Alderney fishing setup. Just need to find an anchor which is deemed acceptable for coding and fishing.

 

The rest of the chain can be left up front for the "champers and cucumber sandwich" trips in the summer.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Osprey]

This is a really interesting topic with some very helpful advice.

 

I've long realised that the most difficult, troublesome and downright dangerous process we have to endure is anchoring, or rather retrieving! For a long time, I was wary of the Alderney method from my Bristol Channel days with frequent stories of small boats going down stern first firmly attached by their rear ends.

 

But the one constant problem I have on Osprey is the damn windlass, winch or whatever you call it (and I've called it lots of unrepeatable things!)

 

When the winch works, it's great! but it jams, cuts out and generally gives me grief on too many occasions.

 

I'm on my second one now and I wish I'd stuck with the Alderney set up that I started with. I still have the kit but I now have one of those self launching bow rollers (with a Delta anchor)which I think would fold under the pressure of an Alderney pick up. So I really need to put the old bow roller back on. I also know I have too much chain for the Alderney set up, about 20m, but I have a spare Bruce with less chain and 200m of warp in the locker but don't feel confident to use it Alderney style with the current bow roller.

 

So reading your various bits of advice has been very helpful. Lots of thinking to do now!

Thanks

Martyn

 

[niggle]

I bypass my bow roller and run it through two extra skean cleats ......works a treat

Nige

[Osprey]

That's another thought! I'll check how strong mine look.

Thanks Nige.

[djredrupp]

Sorry if Im missing something obvious that stops this...

 

But what stops you recovering using the alderney ring (to get the anchor to the surface), then using the windlass to pull the "slack" in?

 

Surely it will recover a lot faster without the weight of chain and anchor hanging vertically below it, as this will be supported by the buoy?

 

 

Dan

Edited February 15, 2012 by djredrupp

[Graham Nash]

I dont know for sure but I would have thought that the strain of an Alderney retrieval on the windlass would cause mechanical failure pretty quickly, also the weight of a 100 met continuous length of chain is gonna need some size buoy to lift it!

[great white]

Martyn

I never leave my warp on the front when recovering with my alderney ring, I leave it attached to the side cleat and release it from the bollard and bow roller,

the boat drifts away and turns away [At slack water I motor backwards to achieve this] from the warp and then I drive around it, then into tide to recover.

 

I know that not all boats have the cleats to do this [mine was built strong in this area for this use], and I would not use that method on a small boat, but on bigger boats it works without fear of damaging the bow fitting or running over the warp.

 

The only time it can go wrong is if you are very close to another boat or rocks and do not have manoevering room.

As I did once at Alderney 4 years ago and last summer when we anchored a wreck with another Club boat and I got it very wrong.

 

As Dan says you could use a combination of a strong fixing and alderney ring to get the gear to the surface then the windlas to put the gear away.

I believe Dave uses that method on white magic, I use one of my big sons muscles its faster

 

But Dave does not get moaned at by his windlass every time he has to re-anchor as the wind changes

 

Charlie

[duncan]

Sorry if Im missing something obvious that stops this...

 

But what stops you recovering using the alderney ring (to get the anchor to the surface), then using the windlass to pull the "slack" in?

 

Surely it will recover a lot faster without the weight of chain and anchor hanging vertically below it, as this will be supported by the buoy?

 

 

Dan

windlasses don't like slack when recovering warp, and won't be much quicker at this point either.

 

we used to recover the last time via the windlass (to get everything back in the locker and stow the anchor) but by ring and hand is the fast route - both for that recovery and for the next drop; I don't free fall the windlass but I do remove the line from the windlass and free fall it through my hands (gloved) but it's a lot easier over the side!

[duncan]

I dont know for sure but I would have thought that the strain of an Alderney retrieval on the windlass would cause mechanical failure pretty quickly, also the weight of a 100 met continuous length of chain is gonna need some size buoy to lift it!

I would expect the majority of bow fittings to fail from the angled loading before the windlass itself (or it's mountings) - either way it's good to raise the point that it's not the way to do it!

[Osprey]

Martyn

I never leave my warp on the front when recovering with my alderney ring, I leave it attached to the side cleat and release it from the bollard and bow roller,

the boat drifts away and turns away [At slack water I motor backwards to achieve this] from the warp and then I drive around it, then into tide to recover.

 

I know that not all boats have the cleats to do this [mine was built strong in this area for this use], and I would not use that method on a small boat, but on bigger boats it works without fear of damaging the bow fitting or running over the warp.

 

The only time it can go wrong is if you are very close to another boat or rocks and do not have manoevering room.

As I did once at Alderney 4 years ago and last summer when we anchored a wreck with another Club boat and I got it very wrong.

 

As Dan says you could use a combination of a strong fixing and alderney ring to get the gear to the surface then the windlas to put the gear away.

I believe Dave uses that method on white magic, I use one of my big sons muscles its faster

 

But Dave does not get moaned at by his windlass every time he has to re-anchor as the wind changes

 

Charlie

Thanks Charlie, that's really useful. Just got to check those side cleats but I reckon they'll be ok. It would probably be easier to use my spare anchor rig attached to the side cleat and feed it over the bow roller when lying at anchor. When the rope is released from the bow roller, I can see how the boat would veer off to the side ready for the retrieve.

 

Sorry Andrew for muscling in on your post but hopefully it is all relevant to you as well as we have the same issue to deal with.

 

Martyn