Fugazi Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 Just put my Mercury 75 four stroke in for its 3rd annual service and had a call from the dealership to say that the sump oil had turned to cream cheese. Water getting in the works somewhere so a major strip down is required to fix the problem. Looks like around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britboard Posted November 17, 2006 Report Share Posted November 17, 2006 (edited) OUCH!! sorry to hear that Gordon, i must say my 90hp been as good as gold, looking at the drawings it look like a gaskets gone somewhere, are any of the plugs dis-coloured on inspection? i put up a water flow chart for you to look at, but unless its a corrosion problem it shouldn't be that big a job it all depends on what your dealer charges? What sort of revs does your engine run at flat out on smooth water it should be getting close to 5500rpm to minimise "detonation". The reason i ask is detonation is an explosion of an unburnt portion of the fuel air charge after the spark plug has fired. Detonation creates severe shock waves in the engine, and these shock waves often find or create a weakness, ie the dome of a piston, cylinder head/gasket, piston rings or piston ring lands. A few of the most common causes of detonation in a marine four stroke engine are as follows: 1 over advanced ignition timing 2 use of low octane petrol 3 propellor pitch too high (engine rpm below recommended maximum range 4500-5500) 4 lean fuel mixture at near wide open throttle 5 inadequate engine cooling (scaling and debris) 6 combustion chamber / piston deposits (resulting in higher compression ratio) good luck Simon L Edited November 17, 2006 by britboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Cheers Simon, Don't know anything about the condition of plugs, etc; as I never look at them I just check the oil level occasionally, but obviously not enough. Last time I looked the oil level and condition appeared normal about 30 hours ago. Regarding the engine running I have had no problem at all, or reason to suspect anything wrong. On the rare occasions when I do give it a short blast it hits the 5,600 rpm figure, although I usually run it at around 4,200rpm giving me a very economical 20 knot cruise speed. The dealer has already checked the cylinder compression and found that it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Hi Gordon We have had some problems with water in the oil of Honda 4 strokes at work The indications are that the sump level rises slightly, then the oil start to emulsify Cure has usually been a strip down of the engine and new lower seals, oil and filter change and flush etc A real pain in the butt and wallet but not one you can atribute to anything you have done wrong, checking your engine every 30 hrs is about equivelent to our weekly checks in the summer. Best of luck Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Moore Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Gordon As you know I am one of the increasing number of etec fans. When Paul D was looking foe a new engine there was much debate over the pros and cons of 4stroke v modern 2 stroke (high pressure computer controlled injection). My reasoning at the time was, not to much difference in performance, economy even sound but your problem now is probably the one reason that I feel the Etec wins hands down, when they do go wrong, the extra moving parts and complexity of the 4 stroke means bigger bills. Sorry, this dosn't help your problems now but just might alter your views on the a replacement if it comes to it. Hope your bill is not to heavy Good luck Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Gordon, Considering what Charlie has said about a similar problem with Honda 4 strokes, it sounds like lack of durability could be the down side of 4 stoke outboards. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Gordon If you decide to upgrade to a larger 2st outboard don't forget to look at the Mariner and Mercury Optimax range......you'll need one if you want to keep up with Maverick, fuel economy isn't so bad either Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Gordon, I would choose an E-Tec if I were looking for a larger engine as I have been well impressed with the performance of my current one. It get smoother each time I take it out ( and is more economical than my old Honda ) and 2 years to go to my next service and then it only invlolves changing injector seals and spark plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted November 18, 2006 Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Etecs on the face of it are very good but are also very new. The first models are I believe just approaching 3 years old. One engineer I have spoken to does not like the extended service intervals and its not because he looses out on work. Put it this way, a standard car service is set for either 12000 mile or yearly intervals why should an outboard motor be any different? Time will be the test of these engines. The same engineer dislikes 4st engines even though he sells them. His words to me when I enquired about upgrading Mavericks power source was "stay with new generation 2st engines for long term piece of mind" I have had my optimax for over 7 years and have not spent anything on it other than regular service and fuel filter changes and it still starts first or second turn of the key except for once when I accidentally knocked out the kill cord and one other time when the batetry was dead If I keep Maverick she will be getting a new 2st 6 cylinder beast then catch me if you can Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Martin, The maximum power rating for my boat is 140hp and considering top speed with only 75hp is 28knots I dont think I would have the bottle to try and keep up. I think it would give a top speed of around 50 knots and on anything other than a mirror calm sea that would be scary. Gordon H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newboy Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 What the hell..... you only live once, just go for the full 140 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 a standard car service is set for either 12000 mile or yearly intervals why should an outboard motor be any different? Time will be the test of these engines. Car engines have a 12K ish or annual service primarily because you need to change the oil. 2 stroke engines have no oil to change. L&J recommend dropping the gearbox each year, just so you dont find out the bolts have corroded in after 3 years. What is there to service on an E-Tec ?Injector seals and spark plugs and the impellor. Also, no problems with a flat battery on an E-Tec, it will start on a pull cord. ( although I must admit I wouldnt fancy trying to start the 100 HP + engines this way ! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob F Posted November 19, 2006 Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Are you on commission, Paul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Damn, I've been rumbled ( No commission at the moment, but could be a good idea - I'll get straight down there ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Hi All I think you are right ref the 2s/4s debate The four strokes have some advantages but I do not think low servicing costs and a long life expectancy are two of them. We have changed from Honda to Yamaha at work because of the high maintenance costs of the Honda units and the cost of parts. Paul in my exoeriance with outboards be vary carefull of the three year servicing. while it may be fine for the engine etc but as you said the parts under water will not come apart for maintenance easily after three years. When I was an outboard maintainer for the Marines. Suxuki water pump casing bolts would shear at the 100 hr service if we did not take the box off and grease them when the engine was delivered new. From personal experiance I fitted a brand New Yamaha 60hp 2s to my Dory. It ran sweet for years and was fully serviced. after several years fishing and a lot of hours the crankshaft bearing went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 It gets worse; I now have Fugazi back less engine which is in kit form all over the repair shop awaiting parts. As the parts are on 3 week back order and Xmas is approaching fast I may not get back on the water until next year. I'm away this weekend, but if anyone needs crew over the next few weeks I would appreciate an invite. Gordon H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Gordon, You are more than welcome out on BW. Once the weather improves we'll have a crack at the cod / whiting. Hope the engine doesnt work out too bad - I was there 3 years ago and it cost me a new engine As for the 2 vs 4 stroke - I'm still firmly in the 4 stroke camp - although Ill admit to the etec's being impressive. If you looks at the popularity of 2 vs 4, in recent years the 4 wins hands down, quieter and more frugal I think...just to confuse matters. PM me your number and Ill call you re. a trip, although this w/e looks out due to 6 mtr swells! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alun j. Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Hi Gordon, With the weather as disturbed as your power supply I think anyone will be lucky to get out this month. I'm as keen as mustard to get out any weekend I can manage; you are welcome to join me anytime you fancy a trip in more confined / exposed conditions. I will definitely be getting out somewhere on the w.end of Dec. 9 / 10 as Debs. wil be out in Spain ......... I might do both days !! Alun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Thanks guys, I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britboard Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 What was the diagnosis for your engine, did they establish what the problem/cause was, i would be interested to know what the problem was? hope your wallet isn't going to be on too much of a crash diet Simon L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 in recent years the 4 wins hands down, quieter and more frugal I think...just to confuse matters. Adam, Agreed that the 4 strokes are quieter than the new generation 2 strokes, however, they are no more economical. In fact I am getting far better fuel economy with my E-Tec than I ever achieved with the Honda. Have never used more than 25 litres on a fishing trip yet and averaging around 1.5 to 1.75 NM per litre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 I recently had a problem with my Mariner 60hp 4-stroke. There is a metal gasket between the engine and gearbox which blew, when the engine was revved the exhaust pressure stopped the water flow as it pressurised the cooling system! As the engine had only done about 180hrs from new I did not think this was very good but the engine is now 4yrs old so I could not make any sort of claim from Mariner. Seems that Mariner/Mercury engines are the marine "Ford" and parts are easily obtainable but still not cheap as a Ford! Good luck with your repairs Coddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newboy Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 in recent years the 4 wins hands down, quieter and more frugal I think...just to confuse matters. Adam, Agreed that the 4 strokes are quieter than the new generation 2 strokes, however, they are no more economical. In fact I am getting far better fuel economy with my E-Tec than I ever achieved with the Honda. Have never used more than 25 litres on a fishing trip yet and averaging around 1.5 to 1.75 NM per litre. I echo PD's comments. 2 Strokes are more economical in most of the rev range. Comparative tests on 75 and 90 hp found 4 stroke is more economical at id ringe only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 The problem turned out to be a gasket seal which has dried out with age and curled upwards allowing water to track under and corrode until finally compromising the seal. All credit to the dealership they are trying to get Marine Power Europe to contribute towards this repair, but I'm not as optimistic as they seem to be because the engine is now one month outside of the 3 year warranty. At the moment I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Gordon Although my ob is a 150hp opti not a 90 it might give you an idea of costs. Largest bill for me so far was this year. Full service (whatever that entails) new rubber belt thingy (big long expensive one that connects everything) new impeller all for less than Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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