TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hello all you wonderful people (in particular plumbers and heating engineers). Up until this autumn I have always lived in a tiny house or flat where bunging one radiator on will warm the house through in no time. I now live in a fairly large, very old and rather drafty farm house and I am trying to work out the cheapest possible way of keeping the house warm - ok, not warm, but marginally above freezing. The central heating is oil fired and there are radiators throughout the house, complete with thermostatic valves. There is no wall mounted thermostat though. At the moment I am simply turning on the radiator in the large dining room down stairs and also one in my daughters room and one in the upstairs bathroom.... This means the rest of the house is like a scene out of some arctic, tundra adventure, complete with the wind whistling down the hallway. Am I right in thinking (probably not) that when our boiler kicks in to life it is basically at WOT or nothing? Am I right in thinking that to push hot water upstairs to the bedroom and bathroom means that it may as well also shove it to the other radiators in the house for little or no more oil requirement? I think what I am getting at... is it false economy to have the heating on and only one or two radiators? Will it cost little or no more to run the others too? Any tips on heating a dafty old farm house cheaply would be greatly appreciated! Cheers Tom PS: Man with chainsaw available to tidy up any fallen or dying trees from your property. This will be a free of charge service and all I want in return is the wood to use as firewood. Done at my risk with nopayment expected or wanted. Will not do any job that could possibly cause damage to property - at that point you need to call in the pro's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirky Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom I am no plumber or heating eng......but from experience......my humble offering here is....... Sounds to me like you should invest in a woodburner, or multi-fuel burner. I have had a woodburner for many years and they are so efficient that they burn and double burn almost anything...with the doors shut !!They can also be rigged to work in tandem with any other heating system for heating the water and or by using TRVs. I pop up to the local industrial site or building site to ask for surplus pallets when tree wood is short supply. I am in a 3 bed bungalow and have mine for main room heating only. I have it "continental style".....with the single skin flue exposed up through the room until about 8" below ceiling where it starts being double skin insulated to go on through the roof space. The exposed flue releases so much heat into the room as well as the main body of the burner. Strategically placed in an old farmhouse I think the burner would be a great asset. Regarding economy of radiator use etc it will depend on how heat efficient the old house is....ie double glazed, cavity wall and roof space. Heating the "fabric" of the house is the expensive bit....topping up in a well insulated place is less expensive. I remember in the old days when I found it draughty in the winter I used cling film on the inside frame of windows to act as draught excluder and "double glazing".....surprisingly effective... Good luck.....keep the kids warm Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi Dave Got a woodburner and love it - hence the comment in my PS about firewood. Got a good supply of old pallets too, but their is something very theraputic about watching a nice log burst into flames. It keeps the living room beautifully warm, but doesn't warm the rest of the house through. The main house is some four hundred years old and a mix of brick and flint. It is grade two listed, but oddly has double glazing (mainly upvc). That said, it is rather drafty. The loft is well insulated, but the walls have no cavities - they are about 18 inches thick. It is only a rented house so I wish to keep any fixing work to a bare minimum. Happy to fit draught excluder around doors etc, but any tips on economical heating using the boiler would be greatly appreciated. Cheers and thanks for your advice. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Martin Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom If you had a gas fired central heating system with trv's on all radiators (except by pass rad) and a wall mounted thermostat in either the hall or lounge our advice would be: so boiler doesn't constantly click on and off turn the wall mounted thermostat up to full. If you don't do this your boiler will stop supplying heating as soon as the room with the thermostat is up to temperature meaning other areas of the house maybe left cold. You then rely on your trv's to regulate individual room temperatures. . If you do this you must remember to keep doors closed or you will be heating all areas at the temperature you have set on your highest set trv. Your boiler once up to temperature is only topping up the heat loss in the water temperature. Once the rooms are up to temperature the boiler will cut in and out keeping your central heating water heat topped up. There maybe a temperature setting on the boiler that you may be able to turn down slightly Also remember your boiler if heating up your hot water supply you might just as well heat up your radiators as this will take very little extra energy I guess an oil fired system works in a similar way If you need anything clarifying give us a call Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thanks Martin! Now, we don't have a wall mounted thermostat, but from what you are saying (?) if you have TRV's then the wall mounted jobby sort of gets in the way anyway... The boiler does have a temperature setting on it. 1 11 111 1111 and I have it set at about 111 which seems to get the water good and hot, without actually boiling. So the question remains... Will I use much more fuel (oil, gas, whatever) if I turn on additional radiators around the house? Or Does the boiler simply use up it's energy to heat the water regardless of how many radiators are in use? Cheers Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom I am not in that business, but if I speak to my mate who is I will ask him. However I have a skip in the garden with plenty of 4 by2 in it from a stud wall I have removed, if you want it for your fire you are very welcome. Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 I have a skip in the garden with plenty of 4 by2 in it Charlie Is it in Vectra boot sized (with the seats down) pieces? I'll come and get it if it is. Alternatively, I can bring the chainsaw round and chop it up sometime in the next few days. ....I'd prefer hardwood but beggars can't be choosers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Just a bit of advice from my Dad several years ago, "Put another jumper on!" Your boiler will be heating up the pipes all the way up to the radiator which is turned off, so really the rad might was well be turned on. The water will flow around the system better as well, pushing out any air bubbles which are likely to be in the system. My advice would be put everything on full for a bit, wait for all of the gurgling and clunking noises to stop (!), go round and bleed the air out of the radiators, then turn down (not off) all of the TRV's so that it the house is just warm (not roasting)- this will probably take a bit of trial and error. This should be the most efficient way to keep your abode habitable. It is more efficient to heat the house up and then keep it warm than it is to heat it up, let it cool, heat it up, let it cool, or to try to heat up only parts of it (beacuse the cold parts will suck the heat out of the warm parts and the rads in the warm parts will be fighting against it all the time. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 I am sure Martin has a selection of Club Fleeces available for all the family!!! On a serious note - Get the house warm - thick walls IS like haveing cavity wall insulation. Once you get the heat in to them it will keep the house warm and require half the heating to top it up going forward. So far this year we are just on towel rails - I am holding out for November before full heating!! ROb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coddy Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi Tom Get an exercise bike and get into regular cycle runs indoors. This will keep you fit, loose weight AND keep you warm! If you get a little genny to run off one of the wheels it could power a household appliance as you pedal! On a serious note I would agree that once the house is warm it will retain the heat and require just topping up as and when. If you have rooms that you don't use keep temp at approx 45F so it prevents freezing and condensation and keep the doors closed. Otherwise set your background heat levels via the rad stats and top up heat with the wood stove. You could always have early nights to keep warm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 You could always have early nights to keep warm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dave We don't do that sort of thing anymore Thanks for the help guys. So.... At the moment, I run the heating for a couple of hours in the morning and a couple in the evening. And when I do, it is just the three radiators (dining room, Natasha's room and the bathroom. If I understand correctly I should really: 1) Turn all the rads on full pelt to get the system running nicely. 2) Bleed any air out 3) Now turn down and rads that are in low usage areas to just above "brass monkies" and keep the other (the three previous) rads to a comfortable setting 4) Run the heating in this fashion 24/7? Or just for the small amount of time I am at the moment? 5) Use the woodburner for additional warmth and cosyness! Sorry for wanting to get this right, but I am rather skint this winter and want to spend as little as I can get away with. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mw Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 HI Tom I would check if you have loft insulation that will save you a lot and i think you can get free ? you will have to stop the heat leaving your house ,if you put the rest of the rads on you will use more oil They say it cheaper to leave the heating on low and that oil is as cheap as gas Out of interest what do you pay for oil? mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 HI Tom I would check if you have loft insulation that will save you a lot and i think you can get free ? you will have to stop the heat leaving your house ,if you put the rest of the rads on you will use more oil They say it cheaper to leave the heating on low and that oil is as cheap as gas Out of interest what do you pay for oil? mark Hi Mark Loft is well insulated already, but the doors (front and both back) whistle nicely and could do with draft excluder (no probs, I can do that!). The windows are double glazed and all barr one is UPVC, but they were fitted rather "simply" and they all need sealing around the edges (I can probably do this too!). The oil costs? Only bought it once and got myself 500 litres just to kick off with. That was about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tome the timber is sorftwood 2 by 4 a bit nail ridden but would fit in the boot and burn ok Not Too PC to burn hardwood LOL Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mw Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom I wonder what my boat would go like using heating oil thats cheap 37 pence ish mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggcol Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom Just make sure you use the right safety equipment with your chainsaw especially if you are going to use it on a property other than your own. It's not easy to stick limbs back on and useing a rod one handed must be very fustrating. BE CAREFUL!!!!!!! Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom Just make sure you use the right safety equipment with your chainsaw especially if you are going to use it on a property other than your own. It's not easy to stick limbs back on and useing a rod one handed must be very fustrating. BE CAREFUL!!!!!!! Colin Point taken Colin. I've got, Husqavarna Chainsaw Boots, Stihl Chainsaw Jacket, Chainsaw Trousers, Helmet, Visor, ear protection and gloves. And will be very careful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggcol Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom Well done mate looks like you got it covered. Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinbad Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Tom, I suppose with your flued woodburner, you dont have a chimney anymore, as this can remove hot air (ie your oil) and your money out of the house faster than government taxes. But its worth considering if the breeze is whistling through the room spaces - what is causing this. There's an old engineering/physics phenomenon called the 'chimney effect,' caused by hot gases rising through a tall building or house They will creat quite a suction on any gaps. sometimes you can see the effect of this with alot of whistling as you close the loft hatch. The rising of hot air because of the difference in the temperature between the cold upstairs and hot downstairs (lounge) creates a cycle of cold air dragged into the house (sometimes from cold air upstairs moving downwards) and hot air seeping through the ceiling through light fittings, upstairs windows etc. I often wondered why so much drafts used to come in arround the front door, and why our lounge was so cold (when the open fire wasnt lit). This wasnt being caused by wind blowing against the door, but by suction!!! created by all my heat going up through the poorly insulated /sealed loft. The answer, may be to close all the doors upstairs (obvious) - some farmhouse doors dont fit well at the bottom- try to seal this up. Other than this, look for how to stop the air going into the loft by sealing up penetrations in the ceiling - some behing light fittings you can put a fist through. Anyway, tend to agree with more radiators = more heat transferred out of boiler and more oil used, but you may be making it worse if you have some very cold rooms with drafts. Cold rooms are fine, without drafts though. Good luck Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Sounds like my house Tom.... but slightly warmer!! Only joking - but you do have double glazing (god knows how a GII listed house ended up with those horrible things! We werent allowed to touch our wooden sashes) Anyway, the first winter here we FROZE!! On cold mornings the condensation froze on the inside.... I remember more than on morning having steaming breath when I came downstairs..... we too had moved from a smallis 3 bed modern bungalow into a 350 yr old big farmhouse.... The second year I draughtproofed any doors and windows that needed it. I added 200mm insulation in the roof, shelled out on decent secondary glazing (allowed on GII) installed a woodburner (simply the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) PS: Old houses are healthy! They are designed to breath - letting moisture in and out - more frequent air changes are better for us. Also 17-19 deg is fine, it's just that nowadays we are all used to modern houses that are designed nearly air tight to reach construction standards. They work on the opposite principle to old houses in that they aim to keep warm air in as long as possible - efficiant yes - healthy? No.... Living and owning a really old house it a bit of a mindset - it takes a while, but then you kind of really get used to it, and once you do - I bet you wouldnt go back - we certianly wouldnt! We stayed with family in Liverpool last weekend - in their newish house.... we slept with all the windows open as it was so flippin hot due to the rads being on 24/7! Edited October 19, 2009 by Adam F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shytalk Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 id have thought there would be plenty of hot air about already !!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great white Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 id have thought there would be plenty of hot air about already !!!!!! A man of few words but they are always gems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBettle Posted October 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Thanks for all the tips chaps, really useful stuff (even Pete's ). We love the house. It's not ours, we are simply renting it from the Drax Estate so any investment has to be based around the fact we are improving someone elses property. Therefore the expense has to be justified. The double glazing is something of an oddball. I have no idea how they allowed it and it is a real mishmash of windows. Clearly fitted on the cheap and I guess without asking permission. I have to say, they are rather drafty, but I am struggling to know how to fix that. Paul's comments about the "Chimney Effect" are interesting. With the living room door shut and the fire on you can stand by the door and feel freezing cold air shooting through the gap underneath, literally being sucked in to the living room from the rest of the house. The problem with the rest of the house is that most of the doors don't close properly. The few that do, don't seal to well and so I guess that is the next job on the list. Anyone handy with a planer want to offer some assistance over the next week or two. Sorting out our doors (with me as labourer and tea maker) in exchange for a trip out to the Summer Cod marks next year? Draft Excluder, doors closing properly and make sure any gaps to the loft are sealed properly (I know of a couple right away - the one where the spiders the size of saucers comes through will be first on the list). Thanks chaps Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Removed Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Hi Tom, First and foremost, once your house is cold it takes forever to warm up, therefor you must keep your heating on at all times. This applies to all central heating systems. The idea is to maintain a comfortable temperature throughout the day. In the morning you will want to rise to a warm environment i.e. around 20 - 21 degrees. During the day the temperature should be around 18 - 19 degrees with the temperature increasing again to 20 - 21 degrees in the evening. The above settings obviously will be decided by your families requirements. There will be a Programmer in your system with various time settings for various times of the day this should be set accordingly. Switching your boiler off and on at different times of the day is false economy, when the boiler comes on in the evening after being switched off all day it will work overtime trying to bring your home up to temperature again, likewise the same in the morning after it has been switched off all night. I hope this helps. Regards Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.