Which one chaps

[Maverick Martin]

Trevor

 

If you still need flares try J-Marine good quality, cheap flares and a club sponser as well.

 

Martin

[Wedger]

Martin,

 

Many thanks, will get onto it this week.

 

Cheers,

Trevor

[toerag]

we have just spent 2 days in Cornwall/Devon looking at boats, and had an interesting sea trial of a jet drive offshore but its an expensive drive system and tricky at slow speed docking.

saying that we were flat out in very rough water and the boat although light felt very safe.

Charlie

I thought Jet drives were easier to dock once you were used to them? I've Seen 'One for His Nob' literally moving sideways into a berth before (OK, so he does have 2 drives).

How much does a jetdrive cost? If money was no object and I was looking for a bigger boat I'd be after a jetdrive simply because they offer so much speed compared to shafts, and even compared to a leg they're not going to get fouled up and slow you down. Plus you can't get nets & ropes wrapped round them.

[Wedger]

I looked at two jet-drive powered craft before I bought Otter (has leg). All the advice I was given actually lead me away, or should I say not so tunnel visioned toward a jet. Yes certainly very versatile and manoeuvrable. You can spin one on a sixpence at full power hover over a wreck, creep into very shallow water, stop quickly 'cos there's no gear change. However, a real good look at second-hand jets are vital. Those that have been used for their designed purpose i.e. shallow water work tend to inhale some pretty thick water from time to time which can cause knackerization within the jet. I trialed an Mi 21 Souter with 165hp and jet that was advertised as, cruises 20 kn. dash at 30 kn. We managed about 14 kn., just sitting up but nuts falling off. dodgy jet .

There are a few websites that discuss drive and power efficiencies have a search. I recall the basic thrust of the argument was 'the less............ the more' Less metal between the power source and the water, the more efficient. Shaft came out tops, followed by out-drive leg, followed by jet. The only argument I didn't really get to the bottom of was the drag factors for each drive system used with the same hull and engine.

 

[Wedger]

Here's one of the websites that comments briefly on each of the drive systems.

T

[great white]

Hi

We had a sea trial of a 35ft boat and jet drive

 

It was a basic fit out demonstrator and went well in the calm water, although the back of the boat was noisey, no sound proofing was installed at all.

 

The boat did wonderfull tricks over large waves when you put the lever full astern at the crest of the wave to prevent take off. then back to full ahead down the wave.

 

Both the boys had a drive and very quickly mastered the spinning on a sixpence.

 

I docked the boat ok but you have to remember which way she goes when the lever is thrown astern, lots of sideways movement.

 

She wandered about at slow speed, but so does a stern drive.

 

Charlie

[shytalk]

i have yet to find anyone who raves about jets they have plus points but plenty of minuses to cost of mainteance being chief among them i know of a work boat that the top speed new was 20knots after 3 months use in the silty north sea was down to 12 knots and the boat metioned in weymouth has had a few problems and very expensive ones at that coupled to the high running costs the purchase price is very high too with a decent one for 2 to 300 hp costing upto 10k cant beat a traditional shaft and prop

[toerag]

Those that have been used for their designed purpose i.e. shallow water work tend to inhale some pretty thick water from time to time which can cause knackerization within the jet.

<snip>The only argument I didn't really get to the bottom of was the drag factors for each drive system used with the same hull and engine.

I believe the 'thick water' in Poole harbour may be why the Condor fast ferries keep breaking down. Luckily for me the water here is crystal clear. I agree that shafts are more efficient, however the extra drag of the skeg & rudder instantly negates that efficiency. A quick look at the specs for Ocqueteaus & Arvors compared to MI's and Aquafishes will tell you that legs are the way to go for an efficient small boat. I personally find that 3 weeks growth of fine green weed on my leg knocks 3/4 of a knot off the top speed, with a corresponding decrease in fuel economy. Of course, a shaft needs less maintenance, so it all depends on how you'll use the boat. I prefer the ability to get to a wreck 25 miles out in a hour, and the ability to clear rope & net from the props.

[TomBettle]

Toerag

 

Whilst all the leg driven boats that have been mentioned are very fast and in a light sea they are excellent they have ridiculous maintenance costs.

 

On top of that I would 100% x 100% prefer to be on a shaft drive boat in any form of nasty sea and certainly in any of rips and races. In addition IMHO they are far better on the drift or at anchor.

 

They are not anywhere near as fast (mine tops out at 23knots light), but will still beat 90% of the charter fleet out mid channel and where leg driven boats were turning back into Braye harbour in Alderney this August due to very nasty notherly wind over tide conditions three shaft drive boats headed home across the channel. All of those boats were very small for that type of journey.

They were an Arvor 25 (basic fishing boat), a Quicksilver 750 Weekender (family boat you can sling a rod over the side from) and my little Merry Fisher 695 (a fisher with comfort! )

 

IMHO you need to weigh up:

1) Do I need 30+knots?

2) Do I need 30+knots that I can only use occassionally?

3) Do I need the servicing costs and aggrevation of an outdrive leg?

4) In a nasty head sea or on the drift, where do I want the centre of gravity on my boat?

5) In 4) above, would all that speed be any use to me anyway?

6) The only real downside I can see to the shaft is that it is susceptible to picking up ropes / nets etc. This can be partially alleviated by fitting cutters and or prop protection.

 

and so on on.

 

IMHO If the boat isn't big enough for an inboard then modern outboards are fantastic, safe can be lifted clear of the water are cheap and easy to service.

If the boat is big enough to have a diesel inboard then have one, on shafts!

[Maverick Martin]

6) The only real downside I can see to the shaft is that it is susceptible to picking up ropes / nets etc. This can be partially alleviated by fitting cutters and or prop protection.

Hu hum...would you be talking from experience Tom or should we keep quite

 

Martin

[TomBettle]

6) The only real downside I can see to the shaft is that it is susceptible to picking up ropes / nets etc. This can be partially alleviated by fitting cutters and or prop protection.

Hu hum...would you be talking from experience Tom or should we keep quite

 

Martin

Martin

 

As an experienced professional in the marine industry nothing like that could possibly happen to me!

 

For me, preparation is everything and I always remember my handheld VHF when the new fixed one hasn't arrived yet.

In addition I would recommend a good wetsuit, face mask and dexterity with a filleting knife whilst underwater with cold hands and TV cameras pointing at you.

 

Failing to prepare adequately can result in continued mickey taking for long periods from your mates in Weymouth, Weymouth RNLI and Whiskey Bravo who take great pleasure in sending a helicopter 25 miles out and dropping a winchman to loan you his own personal handheld.

 

No, nothing like that would happen to me and of course, if it did, I would be prepared!

 

Shafts are great! Woohoo, we love shafts! (but remember a good wetsuit and a sharp knife just incase.

[Wedger]

Count me in for being experienced in that field. (as a passanger).

It ain't humourous.

[shytalk]

the thick water in poole harbour has little to do with it its the unreliable engines that are the problem

[great white]

Having your boat trying to bash your head in while you are underneath clearing the rope from between the P bracket and the prop is not funny.

 

add to that the worry about all the other noises you hear while under, and the fact that you are cold and not good at holding your breath for more than about a minute, the job seems to take forever.

 

In the end getting the boat back in action , safely and without a call to the RNLI it was woth getting your hair wet.

 

Add a wife and two small kids to the mixture and a relaxing day would not be an accurate description.

 

 

I like shaft drives too, but think the next one may be on a leg.

 

Charlie

 

 

[Wedger]

I hear that!

 

Hear, hear.

[toerag]

They were an Arvor 25 (basic fishing boat), a Quicksilver 750 Weekender (family boat you can sling a rod over the side from) and my little Merry Fisher 695 (a fisher with comfort!

[TomBettle]

Toerag

 

I really enjoyed your reply.

I think it is really interesting the different opions people have of what is right and what is wrong.

I still stand by shafts in nearly al situations.

Compared with "Phaeton" for example, which I haven't been on, but looks a great boat, on a nice day Duncan can get to the fish really quickly and if leaving at the same time I would be at the rips half an hour later, however I spent most of my angling career chartering and am used to driving down from Oxford to fish Weymouth (live in Poole now) so for me only leaving half an hour earlier is a relative luxury.

 

I am a fan of my own boat and now sell them as a result (so maybe I am a bit biased). As an owner I have discovered some annoying niggles that need thinking about, but this is the same with most boats, however I still wouldn't change my boat for an outdrive equivalent. She is a stable platform and goes where almost all others fear to go (I have seen a lot of boats turn away from seas my little girl has smirked at), she looks great, is comfortable to weekend on and will fish three in out and out luxury and will cram 5 on at a push.

On top of that, apart from anodes and antifoul, underwater she is completely maintenance free and really cheap to look after.

I still stand by my comment about centre of gravity. Where possible I want the bulk of weight low and in the middle rather than towards the back and with a nice semi displacement and skeg underneath she rolls a fraction and hardly leans into the wind.

 

Each to their own though and I am sure that everyone on here loves their boats for some reasons and would also find things they would do differently if they had the choice.

 

SHAFTS SHAFTS SHAFTS SHAFTS

 

Tom

 

PS: Toerag, what is it that you have?

[duncan]

I find the committment that most people have to the equipement they have invested hard earned cash in interesting!

 

It is of course difficult to keep everything in context but many of the points being made here as 'huge' don't stack across the range of the debate.

 

most inboard engined boats have a fairly consistent COG when fueled up regardless of where the engine is - and although the actual drive will be a litle further back it's also even lower down. proably a neutral score.

 

legs increased efficiency makes for excellent economy for planning boats

 

some outdrive boats are just as good as shaft driven planning hull equivelents for generally handling conditions but once you get to a more SD hull the shafts will win hands down and are less prone to catestrophic failure!

 

getting net out of an outdrive in a seaway isn't that much fun either - and can require getting in the water! - although it's a touch easier than being under the water I wouldn't do it in rough conditions as it's too dangerous.

 

on most of the boats Tom is talking about it's the hull shape more than the shaft that contributes to the ride.

 

I have an outdrive but would be equally happy with a shaft............

[TomBettle]

Duncan

 

I think this is a debate that could go on forever?

 

We are all passionate about our boating and our fishing and those looking to get a new boat will be swayed more by their closest friends advise than by debate. If anything a debate is more likely just to confuse.

 

I would love to be able to cruise at the speed you do, but only if I could retain the SD characteristics that I have at the moment and at my budget that just ain't going to happen. Likewise, I guess you would like the SD characteristics if you didn't have to forego speed?

 

We all love our boats (complete with their niggles and idiosyncracies(spelling?)) and it is from the enjoyment we get from them that we get so positive that we are right about the comments we give. I have to say, I have read your posts on another forum (ybw) and always appreciated your remarks and you do clearly know more than most about your chosen subject!...

 

....don't know why I am being so nice! I seem to remember someone told me about a small local fishing club who is very active. Because of you I am almost living on this forum!

 

So... after saying each to their own and how all styles have pros and cons I have one final comment....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..... SHAFTS SHAFTS SHAFTS!

 

 

[Adam F]

Right, just to change tack slightly and revert to the original subject matter if this thread - I have found this (picture attached)

 

It is a mid 90's Souter 21. Currently with twin 100 Merc's (same age) on a 2 yr old trailer. It is

[Coddy]

Hi Adam

 

Saw this advertised too but in my case only a dream at the moment

 

Apart from wet mooring her you would need a decent tow car to pull all that weight which all adds up to more money.

 

Can you store her or the trailer at home?

 

If not more costs involved.

 

I can't recall what electronics, if any, came with it as this all adds to the final cost.

 

Must admit a nice boat however even with a single 100hp engine.

 

Just had a thought there is all the holes to fill if removing both engines and re-fitting a replacement in the middle.

 

Coddy

[Wedger]

Adam,

 

I've not done any miles on 'Otter' yet, but from two years searching, trialing, testing and pu ing, I'd say give this one a close, close, CLOSE, look . I know 'Otter' is an early example, and despite her relatively bland, workman like looks, she can be appreciated from the sheer robustnessness. This hull just screams 'seaworthy'.

 

T

[great white]

Adam

 

She looks good, and I know you have done the research

 

If the engines are good is there a need to change straight away? why not start with the other upgrades first?

 

I believe its better to get a solid boat under you and that one certainly looks the part.

 

I think a closer look is required mate

always postpone the wedding

 

 

Charlie

 

 

[Adam F]

Ta for the comments...all along the same lines I was thinking.

 

Apart from wet mooring her you would need a decent tow car to pull all that weight which all adds up to more money

 

New car arrived last Friday, 320NM of tourque, but even so I wouldnt fancy towing the brut - she would go on a mooring at Xchurch.....incidently, after only 1000 miles in the new motor, someone stacked into the back of me today! 120,000 miles in the old astra and not a mark, 1000 miles in this and BANG!!!

 

BUT; PX BW directly for the Souter, )10k) add decent engine for offshore work (17K) add a bit of stainless and other cosmetics (18K) add full electronics package and you end up at (20K)

 

23k buys you a 2004 Aquafish fully loaded:

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F51005/

 

Pulling the braces tight, selling the pair of 100's, picking up one of the end of line 2 stoke Opimax's and some clever sourcing of materials could make it 18k.....

 

To be honest its a bit of a snap thought as I had resigned myself to another couple of year till' a new boat, but I still may find myself 'working' near Anglesea next week!!

 

Adam

[toerag]

Go have a look Adam, even if you don't buy you'll get some ideas of what can be done with the boat. I can't add anything about the outboards apart from the lack of weight compared to a diesel will help stop the scuppers working the wrong way when you have a lot of weight onboard. You'll need a radar arch, as you'll be wanting to make the most of her and use it all the time even when it's foggy. Rail-wise it seems to have all the essentials, so you won't need to spend money on those on day one. I guess the only real thing to look for is a dodgy deck or keelband allowing water to get into the hull.