Paul D Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Interesting article here regarding the fitting of radar reflectors. It is actually a SOLAS Chapter V recommendation Radar Reflectors Does anyone have one fitted and maybe we could get a radar equipped boat in our club to test the different ones. Any recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 (edited) Paul, You have a few options. Bob F has a pretty good knowledge of these and the cross sections they throw out. An old topic here: http://www.pbsbac.co.uk/forums/index.php?s...ic=347&hl=radar For our small boats, a tube type reflector is a good option, fairly small, easy to fix out of the way etc. - http://www.jimmygreen.co.uk/chandlery_prod...lector_tube.htm The bigger dome type units I think have a better reflection, but are more suited to wheelhouse boats or yacht masts. - http://www.jimmygreen.co.uk/chandlery_prod...tor_echomax.htm Finally the best option is a SeaMe unit which electronically ampliflies the signal - but not cheap!! http://www.sea-me.co.uk/ I'll be interested in what you choose as I am considering one also... Edited April 3, 2007 by Adam F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted April 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Adam, Thanks for the links ( I knew they were there somewhere ). I am considering one of the small tube ones. It was a result of the recent SeaCheck that made me think. Mike pointed out that it was a SOLAS Chapter V requirement and a requirement on boats our size to have one fitted. The cynical part of me was not totally convinced, so I did some searching. Mike is quite correct I have to say. Link below - check out regulation 19 and the comment "All ships <150gt to carry radar reflector where practicable" More expense I think but at least I should be seen by that big tanker in the fog Annex 2 of Solas V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bliss2 Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Sea-Me are crap i have one and i don't think the are worth it pound for pound i wish i brought a eco max radar reflector. Reason i say the see-me are crap is evey time i ask another boat if it makes any difference if i turn if off they say no all so i have done tests with other boat with them on and see no difference on the screen. In the dock they call see-me Stealth Me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Mike pointed out that it was a SOLAS Chapter V requirement and a requirement on boats our size to have one fitted. as you go on to highlight - where practical.............. personally I believe that it shouldn;t be down to regulations to be appropriately equipped for sea and safety - no regs require me to carry a tide table! however I really struggle with radar reflectors best I have seen on my set is without doubt the active sets like see-me; so from a safety perspective that's obvious then? however if you have a power failure clearly it's useless, and you need a radar reflector especially drifting the shipping lanes unable to start the engine or use the radio eh?..........so that's a couple of those hexagonal reflectors carefully mounted high up as a minimum, if you thought you needed the see-me in the first place you might want real big ones............. alternatively you could take the view that you won't be 'out there' in anything other than calm conditions - and you will deliver an image on a commercial set under those conditions esp if you have a double a frame or similar. I am not trying to suggest that people shouldn't try and install radar reflectors - just that if you really think you should you shouldn't approach it half heartedly............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted April 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 MCA leaflet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fox Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 (edited) Some interesting points raised here... The main reason for a radar reflector is FOG. Few of us venture out to the shipping lanes, and judging by the reports I hear, few ships have heavily manned bridges, so the chances of them even being aware of your existence would still be small. However, at anchor in poor visibility a mile or two out, then it's probably the only thing that could indicate your existence to some of the larger vessels in these waters that could potentially run you down. Duncan correctly refers to SOLAS V as regulations. These are not negotiable. They are part of maritime law. We choose to go to sea, and are therefore bound by the existing regulations, and we can't pick and choose the bits we like. There is a huge gulf between "not practicable" and "mildly inconvenient". In the event of a maritime accident, could you legitimately claim that it was "not practicable" for a powerful angling boat, capable of fishing several miles offshore, with 8 foot rods, cooking facilities, livebait wells etc. I suspect not. While talking legal claims, I checked my insurance policy recently. I am covered for all kinds of things. However, under the Exclusions, I am NOT covered for "willful or reckless endangerment". I'm not a lawyer, but I bet that clause is there so that in the event of an accident the insurance company has a chance of not having to pay up...for example if it was MY fault I was run down in fog for not having a radar reflector, as per regulations. Not only would my boat and crew not be covered, I would be fully liable for the other vessel and crew as well. I know a few other things "wilful or reckless endangerment" might cover too. Mike Edited April 5, 2007 by Mike Fox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 I sort of wish you hadn't posted that Mike............... However, at anchor in poor visibility a mile or two out, then it's probably the only thing that could indicate your existence to some of the larger vessels in these waters that could potentially run you down these are going to be smaller vessels not commercial, will have a much better watch and are not under comercial presures to meet schedules - with the obviouos exception of ferries. however these craft if they have radar will be using it on lower range and at a lower height; in the case of ferries they are specifically looking for smaller craft all the time because of the areas they work in. You are in more danger in these circumstancees from craft without radar, unable to operate it properly or not having it on! I have pretty much the most basic radar going (or still going) and I can pick out pot buoys on a calm day, withies in the harbour and an orkney at anchor makes one huge black splodge on my screen (but not as much as the Barfleur! Fortunately fog tends to go hand in hand with calm seas............ Completely agree re the regs - personally I would rather do something because it's a good idea than because its regulated; shame some do it the other way round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toerag Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 If you fit a tube-type close behind your radar arch it will chop itelsf in half when you fall off a big wave and it hits the arch. Don't ask me how I know that... ! As to the See-Me - Roger Bayzand did an article about it in Sea Angler and reckoned it was great - He kept on getting Jobourg Traffic calling him up to ask who he was! In my experience my JRC1000 will only pick up things like Warrior 175s without reflectors at 1/2 a mile, so get one!! 1/2 a mile is only 'a quick rummage in your bag for a sandwich' at 25 knots! Even if you never go near the shipping lanes there's plenty of nobheads charging round in their powercruisers relying solely on their plotter to navigate. Oh, and if you haven't got radar then when it's flat calm and foggy like it normally is between now and July then you'll miss out on some good fishing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob F Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 There is a new smaller Tube reflector now on the market that is better suited for craft of Warrier 165 size. Unfortunately, I tore out the advert and put it in a safe place, which is so safe I can't find where I put it. I'm getting worried about the number of senior moments I'm having... BF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 Even if you never go near the shipping lanes there's plenty of nobheads charging round in their powercruisers relying solely on their plotter to navigate. A radar reflector isn't going to protect you from those idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 indeed Brian, nor someone dashing around at 25knots in 1/2mile vis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy fred Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 a bit of good advice buy youself a metal boat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afishionado Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 a bit of good advice buy youself a metal boat Wot? Like the Titanic? Mad Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fox Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 If swapping for a metal boat is not for you, then you might like to consider the following suggestion, especially if a permanently mounted radar reflector doesn't work easily on your boat. Get a couple of rod holders (or yachties' flagstaff holders), and fit them somewhere forward, out of the way, but accessible, and buy a pair of broom handles. Attach the radar reflector to one broom handle, and store it along the side deck when towing or it's otherwise not in use. When on the boat, rig the radar reflector forward. And the other holder and broom handle? Use it for your anchor ball shape, on a similar principle. Two reasons...it might stop yachts using you as a "gybe mark" (which allegedly happens a lot), and makes you compliant with another part of the Collision Regulations (see my insurance exclusion point on this thread). Hope this helps, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieannear Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 I've got a length of 22mm copper pipe (not restricted to broom handle length then) which fits snugly into a flagpole holder. I've made up a reflector-to-ball adaptor. It's basically a block of wood with a hole in the base which is the same diameter as the relflector tube. The ball (or one half of it, so that it can still be collapsed for storage) is fixed to the top of the block. The block (& ball) is then fitted over the end of the tube and held in place with a piece of bungee cord. I'll let you know how long it lasts before it falls off the back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 the MAIB report into th eloss of the Ouzo contains a huge amount of information about this issue, especially relevant to the nature of our activities. link to report posted in News section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toerag Posted April 19, 2007 Report Share Posted April 19, 2007 How about making your radar reflector into a ball shape instead of diamond, that way you only need the reflector? (yes I know this may not be correct for when you're under way, but it's probably worth doing as extra weight in small boats like ours is a bad idea.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fox Posted April 19, 2007 Report Share Posted April 19, 2007 A ball shaped radar reflector would probably have a pretty poor radar "echo", which could explain why they don't normally make them that shape. The larger tube shaped echo sounders have internal metal plates to reflect the radar signal back effectively to the source. If you can't mount it permanently, it could be stored with boat hook, gaff etc along the side of the boat (e.g. on a pole) until deployed. The anchor ball shape available in chandlers comes as two flat black plastic disks, with a slot in each. When the two slots are clipped together, it looks ball shaped from all directions. It can be flat packed when not in use, so can minimise space. Weight is negligible for both. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted April 19, 2007 Report Share Posted April 19, 2007 you could however - buy a flat pack octahedronal radar reflector thingy paint the whole thing light blue then paint each panel with a black circle now when you put together you can use it as a black ball for anchoring and a radar reflector in one the bad news is that moving around in reduced visibility vessels with radar will see you as moving, vessels spotting you in the mist/fog will think you are at anchor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffa Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Guys, Apologies for late posting on this topic but have just found a 2005 article in a magazine which tests the various types of radar reflector and it makes very interesting reading. They basically put each reflector type on a 4m high wooden mast (the recommended MINIMUM height) on a RIB and locked the steering so that it steered 360 degrees and thereby they got a standardised plot of performance for each one. The rib was specially chosen for its small radar image. I will bring article to Thursday club meeting If anyone can't attend or needs info more urgently please PM me with their email details and I will provide info. Best Bang for buck by far is the old faithfull cheapy octrahedral 16 0r 18 inch. tubular ones gave very poor performance Sea me excellent provided you've got power and aren't being scanned by S band radar TRI-Lens types were very very good Echomax EM230 also good Unfortunately for small boats most of these are too hefty and awkward to mount. Remember the tests were carried out with the reflectors at 4metres above deck level. At a lower height their performance would be affected depending upon weather conditions . Also time on screen checks(blindspots) were done which makes very interesting reading. Basically: If you can mount a tri-lens standard type cost around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fox Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Good, clear summary Pete. Height of reflector is important, and recommendation of 4m is more for yachts and larger craft with arches etc. For most craft in the club, mounting it on a broom handle or similar would be the most practical way of achieving best height. Mike PS If you fit an octohedral one, it has to be in the "rain catch" position to give the best echo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam F Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 (edited) Thanks Pete, This was one of my largest areas of contention when Mike did my SEA check last week. IMO the tube (MOBRI) type reflector is the only real option for small cuddy boats, they are also the only asthetically realistic - however the small one gives a puny 2m2 - as you say the bigger Echomax style units are not practicle and whilst the Sea Me unit is small, its bloody expensive! I know something is better than nothing....but????? Edited May 2, 2007 by Adam F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Posted May 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Adam, I am awaiting the test results being carried out following the Ouzo incident, which are imminent. A large surface area is of less importance than consistency of reflections ( ie. You are better off having guaranteed weak reflections than strong ones which are not always occurring each scan of the radar. The tube type may be of use if it can be mounted at a high point ( say when anchored if we mounted one at the top of a tall pole of some sort ). Each person on a boat actually has a radar cross sectional area of around 1 metresq but as they are in effect at the height of the waves a radar does not pick them up effectively as it cannot distinguish between the path directly to them and the path via the waves, so they disappear in the noise. Height is the key. Awaiting report ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffa Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Adam, I'm contemplating fitting a dual purpose removeable mast in the form of a broom handle and a rod rest (See Mikes suggestion)that will be mounted to the handrail over the front portion of my cabin(in your case the arch) Fitted to the top of this will be 4 off 15inch stainless booms( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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