Dragging Anchors?

[Adam F]

I hope this doesnt sound too condesending, but I have noticed with increasing regularity a few members who are experiancing dragging anchor?

 

Whilst in day to day fishing this isnt much of an issue, (simply re-anchor, or wait until it bites) if you were anchored near to a hazard with a dead engine it might be more serious....

 

Anyway - just wondered what set-ups you are using to have this happen? Ive seen too often on our boats big anchors and not enough chain which seems to be the main issue - and of course having enough warp out.

 

The rule of thumb for those who dont know is length of chain equal to the length of your vessel as a minimum, and three times the depth of the water you are in for the warp.

 

Anchor size is important, but to emphasise a point, when we launched JV we didnt have an anchor for a few months, so used the one I had on my previous Warriors - a 5kg Bruce - it held fine! But.... we have 8m of heavy (I forget what mm) chain to hold it it.

 

Hope that is useful to some?

[Rob]

 

Good discussion Adam,

 

I think it is important to also remember that if you are in an emergency situation you will need to change your anchor from tripped to fixed.

 

How woudl you change quickly from tripped to fixed?

 

I carry the mother of all cable ties - it must be half an inch wide, but for the bigger boats maybe a suitable shcakle that fits needs to be kept to hand?

 

Rob

[TomBettle]

Yes good discussion Adam

 

The whole world of anchoring is full of interesting little trip ups to snag you.

 

Prior to 05, I always drove the anchor out and used a lazy line and gunnell mounted capstan to bring the kit in over the starboard side.

Then we had a huge fisherman's anchor and about a boat length of enormous gauge chain. The anchor rarely slipped.

 

From 2005 until last year we had a bow mounted windlass which was easy, but very slow.

The standard set-up from Jeanneau was a standard Plastimo (brand) anchoring kit which consisted of a suitable Britany anchor (in our case a 12Kg = BIG, anchor) connected to about 13m (LOTS) of 8mm chain which is connected to a fairly small amount of 12mm or 14mm warp. Ours was standard but with extra warp for the depths we fish.

The anchor NEVER slipped in 4 years and I put this down to the extra long length of chain meaning that the direction of pull on the anchor was always horizontal, thus helping to set it.

 

For 2010 we have kept the old anchoring kit, but ditched the windlass and are going back to the good old Alderney Technique. Always a little nerve racking the first few times, but with caution, I am sure we will soon be able to drive the anchor out as we did in the good old days of Quest 1.

On Saturday, the boys and I were talking about reducing the length of chain on our set-up. You know, to make life easier when bringing it over the side.

My thoughts were two fold:

1) It is the length of chain that is the key thing that stops us slipping

2) When using the Alderney technique the total length of chain must weigh more than the weight of the anchor. This is to stop the anchor falling back to the sea bed once it has been driven out and you are pulling it in.

 

So, if you are only using short chain, add more.

Another tip from the world of boat cruising is after you have lowered what you believe is enough warp and chain, insure you are tight at the bow (no loose warp under the boat) and then gently back the boat away from the warp (downtide obviously) until you literally feel the anchor set. This will be noticed by the bow of the boat gently dipping.

 

Tom

[Oli]

Out of interest, what do you all use for tripping? We use cable ties but it takes about 5 pretty thick ones. Is there a better alternative?

[djredrupp]

We use a 7.5kg bruce, with enough warp and chain for the areas we typically fish, though i think on tuesday, we had issues anchoring, due to to they bottom type, which seemed to consist of small rocks (about the size of the anchor...), as when we lifted it the first time, one of these was nicely wedged between the shank and spade of the bruce! possibly to do with us being on the edge of the spoil grounds?

 

Dan

Edited January 6, 2010 by djredrupp

[great white]

Interesting post

 

I think that SOME of the problem stems from people not changing with the conditions.

 

Tom and Adams set up is correct IMHO. size of anchor and length of chain longer than boat.

what is easy to change is the amount of warp. on a nice day, average tide 3 times depth is fine. on a strong tide and short choppy sea I increase that to 5 times to allow for the conditions.

 

I also use three ply nylon rope not braid to allow the stretch to reduce snatch.

 

Rob your advice is good, and putting on additional ties is a quick option, but not that much quicker than cutting the ties and changing the position of the usual shackle.

 

The other problem and the one that gives us the most problems is the sea bed type.

 

Near some local wrecks its clay, and a bitch to anchor, as they tend to plough a trough and as the strength of the tide increases they slip through the clay.

 

In other areas there are large stones that jam in the anchor as Dan describes, this not only stops the anchor working it makes the recovery with alderney ring difficult, the extra weight allows the anchor to sink again as you try to get it to the boat.

It sometimes needs to be motored out several times .

 

Its a frustrating thing and not recomended when putting the hook down uptide of a big wreck, so much so that I now use a 15kg anchor and chain.

 

I have contemplated carrying another length of chain and two shackles, so that the length of chain can be increased on those days or in those areas when the damn boat will not stay put.

 

Charlie

 

 

 

 

[Jim]

Quote Tom Bettle " From 2005 until last year we had a bow mounted windlass which was easy, but very slow "

 

I have a Steve at the front of Small Fry.

He cycles to work every day so he's much fitter than me ! - - I usually eat another Baguette while he's hauling the anchor up !

Simon and myself used my Alderney Ring last year for the first time. It worked very well.

On that occasion, I had a Simon at the front.

 

Jim

[pirky]

OOOhhhhhh dear.........I have not used the alderney rig yet !!!! been aboard when it has been used but still feel a few nerves about it !!

 

I have a 5kg bruce with 5 m of heavy chain.....trip rigged to 100m of warp.....I have more warp in single length but haven't deployed it yet !!

I was advised much as Charlie, Tom and Adam have explained....

 

....enough chain (min same length as boat ) to hold anchor in correct orientation to bed for grip.......AND to reduce the "snatch" effect in heavier weather.

 

....enough warp to suit conditions 3x depth normal but up to 5x depth in heavier sea.

 

....enough chain to hold the anchor in the Alderney ring once it has got there !!

 

Got to get to grips with motoring the anchor out in 2010...

 

Dave

[Paul D]

Another tip from the world of boat cruising is after you have lowered what you believe is enough warp and chain, insure you are tight at the bow (no loose warp under the boat) and then gently back the boat away from the warp (downtide obviously) until you literally feel the anchor set. This will be noticed by the bow of the boat gently dipping.

 

Tom

Very interesting discussion.

 

I have a 5Kg Bruce and around 5 to 7 metres of chain. I have never had the anchor slip until the last 2 trips to the island.

 

Found the advice here was the answer.

 

I was dropping the anchor to the bottom and then letting the boat run back whilst letting the anchor rope run out as boat moved with the tide. The boat then swung around as the anchor "bit in" but then started dragging. ( 200 metres of rope out by now, so that was not the issue ! )

 

What I found is if I pay out some rope as the boat moves in the tide and hold the rope I can then feel the anchor dig in and then let more rope out as the boat moves back ( this is easily done side anchoring ).

 

Even so, last time on the spoils I was anchored for 2 to 3 hours and then the damn thing started slipping. heavier chain is probably the answer.

[great white]

Another tip from the world of boat cruising is after you have lowered what you believe is enough warp and chain, insure you are tight at the bow (no loose warp under the boat) and then gently back the boat away from the warp (downtide obviously) until you literally feel the anchor set.

Edited January 6, 2010 by great white

[Adam F]

Size of the chain is vital - maybe the most important part - from memory I think we have 10mm on JV - it's beastly stuff but it holds the flukes down.

 

Ive seen too many boats with what is almost bicyle chain sized stuff!

 

The Alderney method is very good - I dont know if a better way of working the anhor in our waters. However even the experianced ones of us get it wrong occasionaly! The trick is to know when this is happening and avoid it getting worse - i.e a warp around the prop / leg etc....

 

We will cover this in Feb/March when we do the club training day. I'm happy to take 4 out on JV to show how.

[pirky]

Adam........

a training day sounds good.....whatever happened to the one planned in Nov/Dec??.......

However Re the Alderney ring rig ......I think it is actual experience I must get as I have seen it done 1st hand and watched the different site vids etc

Calm day without too much warp out is when I will make a fool of myself !! Ha ha !!

 

Dave

[Paul J]

Using the alderney rig gets easier with practice .

 

The key for me is keeping sight of the buoy to ensure the rope goes down the side of the boat and not under it.

 

Having a dory type hull with chines there is a tendency for it to get stuck between the chines and go under the boat.

 

what i do is bring the rope up and around the starboard side bow cleat so its on it's way down one side ( Skippers side) and in clear view before i start.

 

Hope this makes sense

 

PJ

[Mike Fox]

We have a 35lb CQR on Frisky, backed up by chunky 8mm chain and warp. Far too heavy to manhandle regularly from depth, but needed to stop 6 ton of boat moving if I ever need it to stay put, especially in the fiercer tides to the South of our sea area.

 

For fishing, we have a lunchpick of a 5kg claw anchor (cheap Bruce clone), with 5m of 6mm chain and 110m of 12mm 3-ply nylon. It's so far undersized it's not true, but has held us up to a F4 in flat seas. Any swell or increased wind usually makes it drag - or trip. Lifting it used to be by hand, but we tried the Alderney Ring last year to good effect in 100' of water (around 3-1 scope), which we can just get to work at 6 knots using a large fender as the buoy. The boat weight tends to smash cable ties quickly, and we use string. If it ever gets properly caught, the boat weight is sufficient to break it out....or has so far!

 

I wouldn't recommend anyone using an undersized anchor other than for short periods when position is constantly checked, and only then if they have a "real" anchor to back it up. Mind, it does make retrieval a bit easier!

 

Mike

[Coddy]

Adam........

a training day sounds good.....whatever happened to the one planned in Nov/Dec??.......

However Re the Alderney ring rig ......I think it is actual experience I must get as I have seen it done 1st hand and watched the different site vids etc

Calm day without too much warp out is when I will make a fool of myself !! Ha ha !!

 

Dave

Hi Dave

 

Ref above I think you may recall the weather was cr**p due this period

 

On Lady C we have 8mm chain the length of the boat (21ft) onto 14mm warp.

 

If we are moored on sand I will windlass the anchor in if not going to be deployed again otherwise I will Alderney it out and recover over the cockpit side ready for deployment when we reach the next mark.

 

Dropping the anchor in a lump of anchor & chain can cause tangles and will not set the anchor correctly. (been there and done it!)

Also snatching the warp before the it reaches the bottom or having not enough warp out will often break the cable ties.

 

Dave

[Adam F]

Nov weather was crap and then Dec the Cod arrived!! As I said - Feb and March are the doldrums, so we will do it then.

 

Another anchoring point - like on your fishing reels, the thinner your warp the less resistance, thats why braid scores over mono in big tides.

 

In my opinion for a 16'ish dinghy 10mm rope is perfect, over this up to sat 25'ish then 12mm is ideal - 14mm is really chunky stuff! That said many people prefer how the thicker ropes handles when pulling it in.

 

Food for thought...

[transportline205]

A very interesting subject,and i must say i think like most i too have had a few probs in this area.However i found this web site very interesting and though you might too. I just hope ive got this right, computers are not one of my strenghts but i'll give it a go I guess not! try typing in the title

 

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/catenary.php

 

 

Edited to put in link

Maverick

Edited January 6, 2010 by Maverick

[Coddy]

snip

 

In my opinion for a 16'ish dinghy 10mm rope is perfect, over this up to sat 25'ish then 12mm is ideal - 14mm is really chunky stuff! That said many people prefer how the thicker ropes handles when pulling it in.

 

Food for thought...

Adam

 

Reason for 14mm warp is that is the minimum size my windlass will work with!

 

Dave

[Sprinter]

just toss in my 2 pence worth, i have read through and not really seen this so here goes.

 

be careful that you dont just throw the thing over the side of the boat with more chain and warp out than the depth of water, On some of the larger boats if you know the boat has a 1 meter foredeck and you want to anchor in 5 meters of water actually measure out 5 meters by laying 1m on the deck make a turn and run another meter back to the front so it resembles an s, keep doing this until you have 5 meters of chain and warp out, then continue but leave a gap so you know where your 5m is, if you have the room and you are in 5m you would want 15m of warp out, 5 to one side then another 10 all laid nice so it just rolls over the deck and out the bow roller.

 

now you can put your foot on the chain/warp near the bow roller and use it to manage the speed and depth of the drop, get to 5 m and stop, slowly let out another meter and keep it going so the warp is let out to match the speed of the drift once you have your 15 meters out the front of the boat you know you have the right amount out, cleat it off and start fishing. You also know that the first 3 meters are not piled on top of the anchor doing no good what so ever and you have set the anchor with the drift (assumes most boats have depth sounders so know the depth of weater they are anchoring in.).

 

works every time and you dont risk rope burns as your shoe leather is doing the hard work.

 

Granted this will work much better on a yacht but anything with a foredeck would work

 

hope im not telling people how to suck eggs here.

[djredrupp]

sorry, but in any swell, i really dont want to stand on the foredeck of our boat (MF625), laying out anchor warp! Its bad enough sitting on it, with my feet braced either side of the open anchor locker, which i can jump in if it gets a bit hairy!

 

Surely an easier option is to simply mark the warp? a bit of paint every 10m or so, and you soon know how much youve let out!

 

With the configuration of our boats anchor locker, (cleat inside the locker) i tend to let the chain out through gloved hands (you can control the speed then) and then once onto warp, have one loop under the cleat, so that it adds some friction to the anchor going out. This way, it slows the decent of the anchor in a controlled manner (much like a climber abseiling), when i need to lock it off, its very simple to put another turn over the other horn of the cleat, and if i have to stop it quickly, putting my foot on the cleat (which is just pushing forward while sitting on the foredeck) does the job immediately!

 

 

Dan

[TomBettle]

Out of interest, what do you all use for tripping? We use cable ties but it takes about 5 pretty thick ones. Is there a better alternative?

Hi Oli

 

One really nice chunky one (about 1cm) or three little ones (about 3 to 4mm) is loads for us.

I think it is very much down to insuring you cable tie the correct chain link to the shaft of the anchor.

I aways pull the chain tight against the shaft and use the link that is right next to the cable tie point.

The theory being that this will provide a direct line of pull along the shaft to the actual shackle on the anchor meaning that whilst at anchor there is little pressure on the cable ties. These ties only take the pressure as you drive out and round the anchor whilst dragging it out. If the anchor is gently set, the chunky tie is strong enough to remain in place, but if it is snagged it easily breaks leaving the anchor to be pulled up backwards.

 

I know a lot of people have slack chain from the cable tie to the shackle on the anchor. In theory, this means that all the pressure that is exerted to hold the boat in position is on the cable ties.

 

Tom

[duncan]

 

I know a lot of people have slack chain from the cable tie to the shackle on the anchor. In theory, this means that all the pressure that is exerted to hold the boat in position is on the cable ties.

 

Tom

scary

[TomBettle]

scary

But true Duncan.

 

I remember not long ago on WSF there was a fairly extensive thread and many of the contributors (some of supposedly a lot of experience - I may be completely wrong and apologise if I am, but one has even written a book on small boat fishing) were suggesting this was correct.

[TomBettle]

Just checked and I retract my apology.

 

Some very experienced boaters recommending to have slack in the chain!

Comments like these to less experienced boaters are one of the reasons that WSF has gone downhill so much.

 

http://www.worldseafishing.com/forums/show...Tripping+Anchor

[Sinbad]

I've got a large shackle attached to the top of the Anchor permanently, which the chain can actually run through when needed, so when I want to go back to 'normal' anchoring without ties, the chain is just passed through the shackle on the head, with the attachment point still on the crown (if thats the right name for the bit we attach to so that the anchor trips)...

 

Oh, but remember not to overtighten the pin otherwise when you need it, it'll have siezed.

 

Paul

 

I also was considering going up a guage on chain size, or just lengthening the chain to slightly longer than the boat.

 

I would prefer to have lots more chain in case of emergency anchoring, so was going to get a longer piece for use in the winter, and then when the ground swells werent so bad, swap back to the 'boat length' one, which is OK 99/100 times.

 

Paul