Boat Insurance

[Simon]

Sorry guys, I'm fishing more information again.

 

I'm taking delivery of my boat tomorrow and I've had to rush out and insure her today. I've taken a policy through A-plan which is underwritten by Towergate.

 

They emailed me a brief outline of the cover summary and it says cruising range: "Non-Tidal and Coastal Waters of the United Kingdom Only"

 

Does that mean 12 nautical miles? and if so, is this standard with most insurers or should I be looking elsewhere? I have very little experience therefore I'm not intending venturing that far offshore. However, if the conditions were right and there was a group of boats this maybe a possibility.

 

 

 

[plaicemat]

Mine was exactly the same with Portcawl but I called them about it and, after negotiations, extended it to 20 miles from the nearest safe haven.

 

Terry.

[Graham Nash]

I have the same insurance Simon ..... I did venture beyond that distance once, but will do as Terry did and phone them asking for an extended distance in the spring.

 

It will be interesting to hear others comments/experience. Good post.

[gaffa]

I was originally with SAGA who wouldn't change cover from 12 to 20 miles

when requested.

 

 

Changed to Porthcawl who gave me 20miles when asked .

 

Cheaper too

[Maverick Martin]

I have just insured with Pothcawl and they have covered me to France and the Channel Islands as did my previous insurer CraftInsure.

 

I have previously found A plan expensive for marine insurance although most of my other policies are with them

 

Martin

[Simon]

Thanks again guys. Looks like I'll have to make a few calls in the morning.

[codpiece]

Hi simon, How do you get ''non tidal'' coastal waters in UK, Or am I being daft and misreading you? Derek.

[codpiece]

Simon, uh hu got it (I think) happy xmas, Derek.

[Sinbad]

I'm the same, though insured through Haven Knox Johnston - very nice people, and the underwriter is a fe yards away to make decisions like this. Also when I couldnt get the boat off the swinging mooring due to poor weather at the end of the season, a quick call sorted this out and they just said if she ended up on the rocks, then all I would lose would be the excess on the policy.

 

I'd be interested to know of an insurer who would extend the range to Alderney for a Cat C boat - as in the past Raider18' s have made the trip (though not with PBSBAC as far as I know).

 

I got 'mid Channel' coverage but excluding Channel Islands in the end.

 

Paul

[Simon]

Thanks guys, I'm now insured with Pothcawl. Looks like I owe a few of you a pint.

[Jim]

Mine was exactly the same with Portcawl but I called them about it and, after negotiations, extended it to 20 miles from the nearest safe haven.

 

Terry.

And Me.

[Neal]

 

My Policy said UK Waters and Channel Islands.

 

It was when I pointed out that in order to get to the Channel Islands I would need to go out more than 12 miles that they included it within my Policy for no extra charge!

 

Neal

[mw]

my insurance comp only wanted to in sure me when i was on the boat only between october and march so I would not be insured

 

mark

[duncan]

my insurance comp only wanted to in sure me when i was on the boat only between october and march so I would not be insured

 

mark

overall these insurance clauses are getting very confusing - especially as they all claim to have plain English clauses (they have to)...

 

a few pointers

 

Boat CE rating isn't relevant to geographical limits - those (limits) are simply an indication of the likely average conditions against which a particular craft might reasonably be considered. Insurers know this but like to piggy back safety legislation if they can.

 

There is huge confusion about some of the clauses around leaving a boat 'unattended' - other than on it's own mooring (and sometimes including that). This comes around because so many of these policies are derived from trailer boat insurance. You should put any likely scenarios to your insurer in writing and save the response with your policy docs. Generally (but not to be relied upon) responses have confirmed that a boat at anchor when you are on the beach watching it is 'attended', marinas are OK, harbours and their moorings are OK, charted anchorages can be OK for a specified time period etc...

 

Another one that's crept in relates to anchoring in less than X depth or within Xm of shoreline - when damage to sterngear is excluded/higher excess. The reasons are obvious to anyone that's seen people anchoring in the shallows with a swell running (again trailer boats no tender etc)

 

Being 'in company' doesn't make a huge difference to the majority of the insurers liabilities.

 

Phaeton is covered by the next standard "Brest to Elbe", all I had to do was ask (as others above).

 

I would hasten to add that the restrictive nature of the clauses and confusing terms is not really the Insurers fault - and is certainly not an attempt to get out of realistic claims - more an attempt at a warning of bad behavior in relation to an historically under educated (in relation to using boats) group (trailer power boats)

 

There is probably scope to negotiate a club policy ie a standard policy available to club members rather than necessarily cheaper premiums or any club involvement. Now is probably a good time to look at it too. I still have a few connections to plug into if there's a feeling that this is worth pursuing? I would need some basic statistics on the boats that members have and whether trailed, dry stacked, marina or trot - but that's all to start with.

[Simon]

overall these insurance clauses are getting very confusing - especially as they all claim to have plain English clauses (they have to)...

 

I'm just reading through the policy document, confusing! You can say that again. oh well looks like it's going to be a fun evening.

[Sinbad]

Duncan,

I've often wondered whether the Club could negotiate a group rate with a major insurer to get the terms we want, better than an individual. And also, members would benefit from those with experience of the pitfalls of under-insurance would be able to protect those new to boat owning.

 

As a club, we have a healthy financial balance, which we could get more benefit from and in the absence of a long term or realistic / practical plan for investment leading to something tangible (sponsored slipway or clubhouse etc etc) - discounting insurance or a group policy - would this work ?

 

I probably wouldnt go to Alderney in my boat, but there's not much difference between heading for Poole at the end of the day from the Rips or going to Braye - and in terms of insurance not much either.

 

Good post, thanks!!

 

Paul

 

 

[DommyBoy]

Right guys here goes.......

 

I am a marine insurance underwriter (commercial) so thought i'd put id pop a quick note with my thoughts!

 

"Inland & Coastal Water" that means a maximum of 12 miles off......a question i often get is "what happens if im going to Channel Islands as thats more than 12 miles off the mainland coast and the CI icoast....the bit in the middle needs cover to be extended.....if you needed this then youd need to ask your broker (i'll come to this in a moment) to extend your policy to cover "Brest to Elbe", this should be done at No Extra Premium so when asking for new cover say you want brest-elbe from inception, as some of you have pointed out though if you need to go more than 12 miles offshore elsewhere (i.e west coast) then you'd need to extend your cruising range to say 20 miles and again this should not really be charged.

 

I am heading up my own new Marine Insurance Brokerage Division for a large insurance broker locally who want to start Marine in a couple of weeks and i'll be broking both commercial marine business and private & plesurecraft (well anything marine orientated actually) so having an indepth knowledge of the market and insurers etc i will if required cover your boats at "mates Rates"......watch this space and ill keep you posted.

 

Hope Webhosts dont mind my kind of "Plug" here (as you can see i have not given company name or numbers etc to avoid any potential queries), but thought that being a member etc and seeing that there is some confusion re cover etc, i thought perhaps an expert eye and advice on things may come in handy.

 

If Webhosts want to speak to me re sorting out "special rates" for club members then this may be arranged!!!! Let me know.

 

Dom

[TomBettle]

One for Dommy and slightly off tack:

 

Why are insurance companies so antiquated in their definitions?

 

What I mean is that around 2004 the CE definitions were changed from relating to distances from shore to actual weather conditions. They recognised that weather conditions are far more relevant to a boater than how far they are from land.

 

Isn't it time that insurers changed to meet these definitions too?

I imagine it would work out better for the isurance companies as I guess a number of small boats are lost or damaged when out in conditions way beyond their CE rating, but within their insurance cover. On the flip side it would offer much more flexible cover for the boater who does extended cruising offshore as none of us are stupid enough to go out and get beaten senseless in weather are boats shouldn't be in anyway.

 

The two key CE categories of relevance to 99% of us including SIBs (perhaps excluding Kayaks) is Category C and Category B.

 

None of us would actively choose to be out in anything over Categroy C conditions even though a number of us own category B boats.

 

Category C: Wave heights up to and including 2m and winds of F6.

Category B: Wave heights up to and including 4m and winds of F8.

 

Surely boats should simply be insured to the capability of their CE rating? It is so much more relevant and simple.

[Maverick Martin]

Dom could you PM me your telephone number? or call me on 07771 748486

 

Martin

[Mike Fox]

Some good points on here.

 

I have been into non-tidal coastal waters many times. Think about a marina with a sill. When the sill is closed at low water, the water is non-tidal. Not sure this is the intended definition, but if I bump into something in St Peterport Marina when moving berths (for example) it would be good to have insurance cover.

 

The phrase in insurance policies that has always concerned me is "excluding wilful or reckless endangerment". My layman's definition of this is "doing something silly" could mean insurers do not have to pay out.

 

This could therefore potentially include accidents during adverse wind or weather conditions, zipping along at 20 knots in fog, fishing in heavy tidal races, lack of suitable safety equipment for distance offshore, etc.

 

Mike

[pirky]

Dangerous ground this one in my view...... insuring to the CE category

 

How many times do we go out in quite benign conditions only to find that the weather forecasts and windows change rapidly and "hey presto" we are out further than we should be in wave heights and wind way beyond expectation.... or with wind over tide suddenly making us feel very vulnerable. Fog is another situation that is totally unpredictable .

 

So insurance related to the weather conditions would be a little can of worms. Even "Setting out in weather conditions with a positive forecast " is open for so much interpretation and abuse on both sides.

 

I know it is not always a critical situation but we still need to be insured for the un-foreseen change in conditions.

 

Then we go onto the MOT needed for the boat .... the competence of the skipper and crew !! Where does it end ??

 

As a designer i always found the simple, less complicated solutions were always the most robust .... feel the same way about this really !!

 

Is there need for change .... or just a need for a little more clarity..... seems to work pretty well at the moment barring a few cloudy issues.

 

Just my opinion ... not that I am an authority or have much experience of it !!

 

Or have I missed the drift of the thread ??

 

Dave

Edited April 1, 2011 by pirky

[TomBettle]

How many times do we go out in quite benign conditions only to find that the weather forecasts and windows change rapidly and "hey presto" we are out further than we should be in wave heights and wind way beyond expectation.... or with wind over tide suddenly making us feel very vulnerable. Fog is another situation that is totally unpredictable .

 

Dave

 

Not wishing to be rude, but we never have conditions that change like that anymore.

 

You would never be caught out in strong winds you didn't know were coming and we all know what wind over tide does. And if we don't understand either of the above then we shouldn't be beyond the current 12 mile "inshore" limits anyway.

 

During the last couple of days of strong winds (6s and 7s) the wave height at the channel light buoy has only just broken the 2m barrier a couple of times and there is no way that any of us would be out there in it.

 

F6 winds and 2m waves are extreme conditions on our small boats and if we were caught out afloat in those then we should be afloat as we aren't competent enough.

 

Likewise, speaking from experience in several MUCH larger Cat B boats we wouldn't want to be in 4m waves and F8 winds in our smaller ones.

 

The CE cats are where are boats limits are at. Beyond them nobody can say how the boat will cope, but they should manage in competent hands up to those points.

 

If "caught in a storm" 1 mile offshore and the 3m breaking waves eventually capsized the boat and the insurance had to pay out then more fool them for not checking the boaters ability as who the heck gets caught in a storm nowdays?

[TomBettle]

Just wanting to add that it can be calmer mid channel than it is over Poole Rocks so there is, in theory, no reason why smaller boats shouldn't be there if properly equipped and with crew who know what they are doing.

The current system allows a muppet with no training and a boat to head out into the Swash when an ebbing spring tide hits a F10 Easterly.

(OK the quote about reckless endangerment may be pulled into play, but the point being that modern forecasting is good and are boats are limited more by weather than by distance).

[pirky]

Tom....Fair enough to that .....you are far more experienced in these matters than I.

 

I did say "Just my opinion ... not that I am an authority or have much experience of it !!

I entered the debate humbly !!

 

I just know I have been caught out several times in worse than I expected in my little boat ....even though I took every precaution and checked several forecasts ......AND in the dreaded fog too.... and when suddenly rounding a headland or catching a tide/wind over reef/ rip ....

But as you say..... not above Category C: Wave heights up to and including 2m and winds of F6.

 

 

Dave

[Graham Nash]

It was renewal time for me and I had a look around for quotes. I found "Doms'" number on another forum and gave his company a try. He was not about but I spoke with his colleague.

 

In short, it would seem I have saved around